Atlas Air Hiring
12-05-2017, 07:56 PM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Posts: 80
Why go to Atlas for a type? The leagcies/LCC's don't care about that. Hiring is controlled by HR departments. The women that run these departments barely know what a type rating is, much less what it might mean for you capabilities as a pilot (nor do they care). It's getting to the point where having Atlas on your resume might make you look like some kind of untouchable/loser. You'll start to feel that way yourself after a few years here. It's both ENRAGING and Depressing at the same time. You'll barely be able to look yourself in the mirror when the guys parked across the airport are making no $hit double/triple your pay on smaller equipment. I'm not exaggerating when I say it's RJ pay with worse benefits on the 737 and 767 at Atlas/Southern.
You would need to be an ex-con or a masochist to consider Atlas a good place to work right now.
You would need to be an ex-con or a masochist to consider Atlas a good place to work right now.
12-06-2017, 06:23 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,236
Originally Posted by kolt66
Since Atlas and Southern are supposed to be under a Single Operating Certificate in January why wouldn't the Southern pilots be under the same contract as the Atlas pilots?
You think Atlas is going to amalgamate Atlas' contract with Southern's to degrade the current Atlas contract? Is that what you're saying? Is that possible?
You think Atlas is going to amalgamate Atlas' contract with Southern's to degrade the current Atlas contract? Is that what you're saying? Is that possible?
We offered the CEO to put Southern on our contract but their response was "Why would I do that? I'm a businessman."
As I said above... If you come here consider the affect it may have on your family life prior to leaving your current job. Only come here with a quick exit plan and a robust emergency fund as first year pay is maybe half of what you'd make on first year at a Regional.
12-06-2017, 11:47 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by Globemaster2827
18 days is how it works out for me currently but I can drive to base. When based in ANC you'll need to commercial to ANC and get 10 hours of rest maybe more if Travel wants you to have a backup flight. On the back side you'll commercial home and you can waive rest to get home. It probably will take you 2 days of commuting putting you on the hook for 19 days IF you can't drive to a base. 18 days if you can drive.
Kalitta is a better job right now but reading their contract it's horrible too. It isn't a destination airline either. I think your assessment of their travel policy is correct.
As for the new contract... We're years and years away from seeing it. Currently the next domino that needs to fall is a law suit that determines if Atlas is in Section 6 negotiations or if we need to have a management grievance determine if we're in Section 6 or Merger negotiations. The Section 6 will probably take an extremely long time to hash out but yield a better contract. The Merger could be really bad. Southern owes 20 days a month and has worse work rules than even Atlas. Their 737 pilots don't get Gateway and they're going to try to ram that down our throats through an arbitrator. That could come as soon as 9 months after the law suit is settled. So in all likely hood the sooner a contract comes increases the odds that working at Atlas will be worse than it is today.
All of that is confusing so I'd say that if you come here, come with a quick exit strategy and a robust emergency fund. If being gone 19 days a month is gonna cause a divorce then it's not worth coming here at any price. If a Boeing type will get you to your destination airline quick and you're family can handle it then it may be worth it.
Kalitta is a better job right now but reading their contract it's horrible too. It isn't a destination airline either. I think your assessment of their travel policy is correct.
As for the new contract... We're years and years away from seeing it. Currently the next domino that needs to fall is a law suit that determines if Atlas is in Section 6 negotiations or if we need to have a management grievance determine if we're in Section 6 or Merger negotiations. The Section 6 will probably take an extremely long time to hash out but yield a better contract. The Merger could be really bad. Southern owes 20 days a month and has worse work rules than even Atlas. Their 737 pilots don't get Gateway and they're going to try to ram that down our throats through an arbitrator. That could come as soon as 9 months after the law suit is settled. So in all likely hood the sooner a contract comes increases the odds that working at Atlas will be worse than it is today.
All of that is confusing so I'd say that if you come here, come with a quick exit strategy and a robust emergency fund. If being gone 19 days a month is gonna cause a divorce then it's not worth coming here at any price. If a Boeing type will get you to your destination airline quick and you're family can handle it then it may be worth it.
I've been reading that Atlas wants to offer its pilots the Kalitta contract + a dollar. If you had that you wouldn't have to worry about gateway travel because they would pay for that with no imputed income and the schedule would be much better with only 17 days on total including travel to and from the airplane. That part at least seems vastly better than the current Atlas contract.
But I guess the pilots want significantly more in the form of a really big pay raise? Is that the big point of contention? Management wants to give you a much better schedule with a slight pay raise but the pilots want a much more significant pay raise?
12-06-2017, 11:53 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by Globemaster2827
This is an extremely important point for a potential new hire. Yes that's a possibility. It's a doomsday scenario but a possibility. More than likely it's a threat they'd like to use in the event that they win the Merger lawsuit and force us to merge instead of Section 6. Our leverage would be greatly diminished knowing that Arbitration is on the other side instead of simply voting no or going through impasses. In that case we might be forced to take whatever they give us, which they're claiming is a "Kalitta Plus $1 Contract". Kalitta's contract has a nice shiny rate but is one of the worst in the industry when you look at retirement and work rules. The rate isn't Industry Standard either.
We offered the CEO to put Southern on our contract but their response was "Why would I do that? I'm a businessman."
As I said above... If you come here consider the affect it may have on your family life prior to leaving your current job. Only come here with a quick exit plan and a robust emergency fund as first year pay is maybe half of what you'd make on first year at a Regional.
We offered the CEO to put Southern on our contract but their response was "Why would I do that? I'm a businessman."
As I said above... If you come here consider the affect it may have on your family life prior to leaving your current job. Only come here with a quick exit plan and a robust emergency fund as first year pay is maybe half of what you'd make on first year at a Regional.
12-06-2017, 01:10 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,236
Originally Posted by kolt66
If you're not in Section 6 negotiations then you haven't even begun to hash out a new contract? Is that right? Why the work slowdown recently that resulted in Atlas suing its pilots? I assumed that was a negotiation tactic by the pilots because you were hashing out a new contract but management wasn't offering much.
I've been reading that Atlas wants to offer its pilots the Kalitta contract + a dollar. If you had that you wouldn't have to worry about gateway travel because they would pay for that with no imputed income and the schedule would be much better with only 17 days on total including travel to and from the airplane. That part at least seems vastly better than the current Atlas contract.
But I guess the pilots want significantly more in the form of a really big pay raise? Is that the big point of contention? Management wants to give you a much better schedule with a slight pay raise but the pilots want a much more significant pay raise?
I've been reading that Atlas wants to offer its pilots the Kalitta contract + a dollar. If you had that you wouldn't have to worry about gateway travel because they would pay for that with no imputed income and the schedule would be much better with only 17 days on total including travel to and from the airplane. That part at least seems vastly better than the current Atlas contract.
But I guess the pilots want significantly more in the form of a really big pay raise? Is that the big point of contention? Management wants to give you a much better schedule with a slight pay raise but the pilots want a much more significant pay raise?
Question 2... With regard to the work slow down the problem is that Atlas is seeing 15-20% turnover a year of it's pilots and trying to expand at the same time. That requires upgrades. All of this has caused mass chaos. They blamed it on us, sued us and won. I doubt things will change because there's still a shortage out on the line. Next year I know a ton of people with classes at forever airlines.
Question 3... The "Kalitta Plus $1" is what I've called the company's pitch to us about the new contract. Kalitta has terrible work rules and so does Atlas. Atlas's retirement is probably around 25% of American Airlines's. Probably 15% of UPS or FedEx. Kalitta's CURRENT retirement is worse than Atlas's. Atlas pilots are gone from home 10 more days a month than American Pilots. Kalitta is probably 8 days. Atlas has no line guarantee and neither does Kalitta. Atlas can change our schedules an unlimited amount of times without financial penalty. Atlas has a 62 hour guarantee. Kalitta is 64. UPS has 13 pay periods. Kalitta and Atlas have 12. Atlas pilots don't get paid the months we have to train, so 2 months a year you get min guarantee so that you can train. At Atlas you pay the company to take your checkride. Atlas pilots can work 22 hour days. Kalitta's days are longer. Kalitta has no Rig. What do these work rules mean? A 2nd year UPS FO probably makes what a 12 year Captain at Kalitta makes despite making $80 less an hour. They make $40,000 more than an Atlas Captain. So a "Kalitta Plus $1" contract with no Gateway (Kalitta has home basing) would mean that we'd be under contract for 5 years after the TA and still make less than a UPS FO on 2nd year pay.... And we'd be gone from home far more. Why is that a good deal for any Kalitta or Atlas pilot to make it to Captain and work more/make less than a UPS FO?
Question 4... Compensation is a huge issue for us but only one issue. We did a contract study and we'd have to get $425 an hour to have an Industry Standard Contract with our current work rules and retirement. All of these things are equally important as is Scope.
Question 5... Management does NOT want us to get a better "Schedule". They've proposed taking away Gateway and forcing us to sit home reserve in base. Under current rules we get no Rig for home reserve, so that'd mean they could build Reserve lines that pay only 62 hours of pay. They want to keep the long days that cause us to call in Fatigued as well. Management wants to merge our contract with Southern's who work 20 days a month.
Know this... We want an Industry Standard Contract. All of it. I'm not saying we get it, but that's what we're shooting for. Management wants to merge our current horrendous contract with Southern's worst in all of American Cargo bankruptcy contract and give us a slight hourly pay increase and call it a day. That might be a pay DECREASE given Southern's work rules and might mean that we work more days a month. If we merge our work rules with Southern and get a "Kalitta Plus $1" contract that'd likely be the same pay as we currently make for the next 5 years until they just buy Amerijet.... Or ATSG.... Or Centurion... Or Kalitta...
12-06-2017, 01:16 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,236
Originally Posted by kolt66
If Atlas wins the merger lawsuit they could complete the merger with Southern in 2018 and then force the pilots to accept a 'Kalitta + a dollar' contract?
12-06-2017, 01:46 PM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by Globemaster2827
Question 1... We are negotiating but the negotiations are effectively stalled. Anything that we've asked for that requires money (we're talking things that might cost the company $1000 a year) have been rejected. We are waiting for the law suit that will tell us whether we're going to negotiate in Section 6 or Merge. If we Merge we'll end up going over 20 years without getting to vote on a contract. We have started to negotiate but nothing of importance has been worked out and won't be until both sides understand their leverage.
Question 2... With regard to the work slow down the problem is that Atlas is seeing 15-20% turnover a year of it's pilots and trying to expand at the same time. That requires upgrades. All of this has caused mass chaos. They blamed it on us, sued us and won. I doubt things will change because there's still a shortage out on the line. Next year I know a ton of people with classes at forever airlines.
Question 3... The "Kalitta Plus $1" is what I've called the company's pitch to us about the new contract. Kalitta has terrible work rules and so does Atlas. Atlas's retirement is probably around 25% of American Airlines's. Probably 15% of UPS or FedEx. Kalitta's CURRENT retirement is worse than Atlas's. Atlas pilots are gone from home 10 more days a month than American Pilots. Kalitta is probably 8 days. Atlas has no line guarantee and neither does Kalitta. Atlas can change our schedules an unlimited amount of times without financial penalty. Atlas has a 62 hour guarantee. Kalitta is 64. UPS has 13 pay periods. Kalitta and Atlas have 12. Atlas pilots don't get paid the months we have to train, so 2 months a year you get min guarantee so that you can train. At Atlas you pay the company to take your checkride. Atlas pilots can work 22 hour days. Kalitta's days are longer. Kalitta has no Rig. What do these work rules mean? A 2nd year UPS FO probably makes what a 12 year Captain at Kalitta makes despite making $80 less an hour. They make $40,000 more than an Atlas Captain. So a "Kalitta Plus $1" contract with no Gateway (Kalitta has home basing) would mean that we'd be under contract for 5 years after the TA and still make less than a UPS FO on 2nd year pay.... And we'd be gone from home far more. Why is that a good deal for any Kalitta or Atlas pilot to make it to Captain and work more/make less than a UPS FO?
Question 4... Compensation is a huge issue for us but only one issue. We did a contract study and we'd have to get $425 an hour to have an Industry Standard Contract with our current work rules and retirement. All of these things are equally important as is Scope.
Question 5... Management does NOT want us to get a better "Schedule". They've proposed taking away Gateway and forcing us to sit home reserve in base. Under current rules we get no Rig for home reserve, so that'd mean they could build Reserve lines that pay only 62 hours of pay. They want to keep the long days that cause us to call in Fatigued as well. Management wants to merge our contract with Southern's who work 20 days a month.
Know this... We want an Industry Standard Contract. All of it. I'm not saying we get it, but that's what we're shooting for. Management wants to merge our current horrendous contract with Southern's worst in all of American Cargo bankruptcy contract and give us a slight hourly pay increase and call it a day. That might be a pay DECREASE given Southern's work rules and might mean that we work more days a month. If we merge our work rules with Southern and get a "Kalitta Plus $1" contract that'd likely be the same pay as we currently make for the next 5 years until they just buy Amerijet.... Or ATSG.... Or Centurion... Or Kalitta...
Question 2... With regard to the work slow down the problem is that Atlas is seeing 15-20% turnover a year of it's pilots and trying to expand at the same time. That requires upgrades. All of this has caused mass chaos. They blamed it on us, sued us and won. I doubt things will change because there's still a shortage out on the line. Next year I know a ton of people with classes at forever airlines.
Question 3... The "Kalitta Plus $1" is what I've called the company's pitch to us about the new contract. Kalitta has terrible work rules and so does Atlas. Atlas's retirement is probably around 25% of American Airlines's. Probably 15% of UPS or FedEx. Kalitta's CURRENT retirement is worse than Atlas's. Atlas pilots are gone from home 10 more days a month than American Pilots. Kalitta is probably 8 days. Atlas has no line guarantee and neither does Kalitta. Atlas can change our schedules an unlimited amount of times without financial penalty. Atlas has a 62 hour guarantee. Kalitta is 64. UPS has 13 pay periods. Kalitta and Atlas have 12. Atlas pilots don't get paid the months we have to train, so 2 months a year you get min guarantee so that you can train. At Atlas you pay the company to take your checkride. Atlas pilots can work 22 hour days. Kalitta's days are longer. Kalitta has no Rig. What do these work rules mean? A 2nd year UPS FO probably makes what a 12 year Captain at Kalitta makes despite making $80 less an hour. They make $40,000 more than an Atlas Captain. So a "Kalitta Plus $1" contract with no Gateway (Kalitta has home basing) would mean that we'd be under contract for 5 years after the TA and still make less than a UPS FO on 2nd year pay.... And we'd be gone from home far more. Why is that a good deal for any Kalitta or Atlas pilot to make it to Captain and work more/make less than a UPS FO?
Question 4... Compensation is a huge issue for us but only one issue. We did a contract study and we'd have to get $425 an hour to have an Industry Standard Contract with our current work rules and retirement. All of these things are equally important as is Scope.
Question 5... Management does NOT want us to get a better "Schedule". They've proposed taking away Gateway and forcing us to sit home reserve in base. Under current rules we get no Rig for home reserve, so that'd mean they could build Reserve lines that pay only 62 hours of pay. They want to keep the long days that cause us to call in Fatigued as well. Management wants to merge our contract with Southern's who work 20 days a month.
Know this... We want an Industry Standard Contract. All of it. I'm not saying we get it, but that's what we're shooting for. Management wants to merge our current horrendous contract with Southern's worst in all of American Cargo bankruptcy contract and give us a slight hourly pay increase and call it a day. That might be a pay DECREASE given Southern's work rules and might mean that we work more days a month. If we merge our work rules with Southern and get a "Kalitta Plus $1" contract that'd likely be the same pay as we currently make for the next 5 years until they just buy Amerijet.... Or ATSG.... Or Centurion... Or Kalitta...
When you say that Atlas wants to give you "Kalitta Plus $1" do you think that if they forced that on you that you'd at least get the 17 day schedule? That would at least be a significant improvement from 20 days with imputed income on travel.
12-06-2017, 02:00 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,236
Originally Posted by kolt66
Really great info, thank you. The one thing I really like about Kalitta is that it's a 17 day on schedule and they airline you to and from home base. Atlas effectively has a 20 day on schedule for those who don't live in base which I'm assuming is most people and of course that travel is imputed income which is just awful. I would think that the Kalitta schedule would be the one thing that Atlas pilots would want more than anything else in the Kalitta contract.
When you say that Atlas wants to give you "Kalitta Plus $1" do you think that if they forced that on you that you'd at least get the 17 day schedule? That would at least be a significant improvement from 20 days with imputed income on travel.
When you say that Atlas wants to give you "Kalitta Plus $1" do you think that if they forced that on you that you'd at least get the 17 day schedule? That would at least be a significant improvement from 20 days with imputed income on travel.
12-06-2017, 02:15 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: men without hats
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by kolt66
Really great info, thank you. The one thing I really like about Kalitta is that it's a 17 day on schedule and they airline you to and from home base. Atlas effectively has a 20 day on schedule for those who don't live in base which I'm assuming is most people and of course that travel is imputed income which is just awful. I would think that the Kalitta schedule would be the one thing that Atlas pilots would want more than anything else in the Kalitta contract.
When you say that Atlas wants to give you "Kalitta Plus $1" do you think that if they forced that on you that you'd at least get the 17 day schedule? That would at least be a significant improvement from 20 days with imputed income on travel.
When you say that Atlas wants to give you "Kalitta Plus $1" do you think that if they forced that on you that you'd at least get the 17 day schedule? That would at least be a significant improvement from 20 days with imputed income on travel.
12-06-2017, 03:05 PM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by Globemaster2827
At Kalitta you will absolutely work less days. 15-17 days sounds correct. If we end up in Arbitration with the "Kalitta Plus $1 Contract" I'm expecting that I would work an extra day a month than I currently do- at least. I do think we'd keep Gateway in that scenario but I'd work 19 days a month instead of 18. It works out to be an average of 18 days a month when I drive and 19 days a month when I have to use Gateway. All of this is pure speculation though. We do know that the contract will be worse if the company wins that law suit.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
