How long has the average Horizon pilot been there? I'm guessing about 10 years. The junior capt was hired in 1999 (6 yr FO). Based on the 92hr guarantee, 2nd year FO($31) makes $34,224. That's pretty close to what the 'general population earns'. A 10 year Dash capt makes $69,552 and a 12 year CRJ capt makes $106K.

The average annual pay of all workers covered by state and federal
unemployment insurance (UI) programs rose by 2.5 percent to $36,214 in
2001, according to preliminary data released today by the Bureau of Labor
Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor.

It would appear that either the pay #'s on APC are wrong or you may need to reevaluate what you think 'a living is. I made a living as a $29K Deputy Sheriff and a 36K first year SWA FO but know some of my fellow $200K+ capt's that need to fly extra to meet their oblibations.

If you compare your pay to that of most CEO's, you will be disappointed but if you compare your pay to what the general population truley earns using real #'s, Horizon pay does't look so bad. It's all about perspctive.

You are certainly entitled to you opinion and I enjoy reading your posts as well as the other posters but your last statement was factually wrong.

 

You have done some research. However, I still disagree with you. I worked for Horizon as a line pilot and still have friends who work there as Captains. They report to me that as 7-8 year Captains they are making around 50-55. They all expect their pay to be cut at the next contract. If you take the math further most new hires at Horizon spent 2 to 7 years doing jobs they paid much less before they got to horizon. Besides that they are deeply in debt to college loans and flight school expenses. Therefore you really need to look at the whole picture. Everything these guys had to go through to make that 35K. Then compare it to a local new hire cop or firefighter. In the city that I lived in as a pilot for Horizon a new hire firefighter made 52K starting out and had opportunities to earn much more in overtime. The police earned close to the same. A police or fire new hire mostly had no college and no extra paid for training. The average age was between 20 and 25. In addition they will receive a full retirement after 20 years. It is a good deal and many Horizon Pilots have left to pursue those goals. I also have the benefit of owning a few rental homes and have been able to survey the population and am constantly stunned to discover what other people earn. A starting paramedic makes 36K his first day out of school and rapidly moves up to the mid 50's at least a full decade before the average Horizon pilot makes that much. Plus the paramedic has a retirement. By the time a poor Horizon pilot makes it to the left seat and has enough time to get hired by a good company he/she is in their lower to mid 40's. If they are lucky enough to have a family their kids are older and well established in the community. It is tuff to leave for a starting position at half the wages in a strange town. My point is that the efforts are not worth the results when looked at over time. If a person is dedicated and focused enough to make it through flight school, college and through the perilous years as a CFI or freight dog then they could have done many other things that have a much better return. By the time our Horizon hero is starting to make some good money he/she has jumped into a tax bracket that allows the government to take a large chunk of it at the same time someone who went to the fire department is looking at retirement. In closing there are a few guys in my home town who lay tile for a living and they average between 85 and 120K per year. No college debt no training costs, just cash. They are usually sitting in the back of the Dash 8 on their way to their second vacation of the year while the guys in front are trying to choke down a sack lunch.


SkyHigh

 

Just like your first post that I replied to I agree to with most of what you said and it makes for good debate as it is our opinions that we are exchanging. Once again though you throw in a line that just doesn't make sense. I'll ask you again, and any other Horizon pilot on this forum...is the payscale and garauntee listed here on APC wrong?
If the most junior captain was hired in '99, a "full decade" later he'd be a 10 year DH8 capt. $63 X 92hr X 12mo = $69,552
The most junior capt was hired in AUG '99 and therefor just started his 7th year for pay, so in his 7th year he'll be in the mid 60's ($58x92hrx12mo=$64k)(end of factual dispute......opinion to follow)
My brother is a fireman and does quite well. And yes he has a very lucrative retirement package. Retirement in the private sector is a thing of the past though. There is another thread here that states DAL may not send out 3500 retirement checks this month. UAL & USAir have screwed their current and former emloyees and DAL & NWA are doing it now. I'm glad that I don't have a company pension plan as we have seen that it is at risk of being taken away, I own my 401k, and IRA's, not the company. When I was an FO, I used to tell my brother that he had the third best job in the world and that I had the second. He say 'oh yah, who's got the best' and I'd say 'my captain'. He would disagree since he didn't care anything about flying. We both work about 11 days/mo but I make 3x as much. He wouldn't want my job though, he loves his at .30c on the dollar. My point being is, either do something you love or go work for as much money as you can and 'buy' things that will make you happy. If it's the pensions and retirement that you are covetting, then go get a federal gov't job (those pensions are secure as they'll just raise our taxes to cover them). I recently read somewhere that the average Air Traffic Controller now makes more than the average Airline Pilot. I think the #'s were something like $103k vs. $89k (who would have thunk?) I'll be listening for you on the radio

 

SWAcapt

Horizon has a 35 day bid period with that 92hrs guarantee. That comes out to be just over 10 bid periods per year.

Most Jr capt. (7yr DH8 Capt)
$58 * 92 * 10 = $53,360

10 Yr DH8 Capt
$63 * 92 * 10 = $57,960

 

SWA,

All I wished to do was to have a career that I enjoyed that would help me build a family and fulfill my responsibilities. As pointed out by an earlier post Horizon has a strange bid system. The pay is around 50-56K for a Dash 8 Capt and it takes ten years and around 150K to get there. The model works if one were to get on with a major airline in their late 20's or early 30's. I don't believe that flying for Horizon is a reasonible risk for ones fanancial future. I have often wondered if I had taken all the money I ever spent on aviation and invested it in real estate I would be much better off. Doing what you love is great but in the end we all need to make a living. I wish I was at SWA or ALaska Air, but it isnt in the cards for the majority of us.


SkyHigh

 

Thanks for the response, apparently the scales are correct but don't include the amount of bid periods. I will message APC and see if we can get these included.

 

Sky, You are right. As I said in a previous post, I do not contest your opinion. I am just one of those hyper-accurate (anal-retentive) pilots and the #'s just weren't working. It appears that the 10 bid period was the problem. Perhaps APC will be able to include the # of bid periods on their airline pages. The best to you in whatever you do.

 

Well, this is a great, uplifting thread. So I should get back on active duty, and pass gas over one of them -stan countries and eat a bigger box lunch... and get a good retirement? Anyone one know how to get on with DEA, FBI, Customs or ICE?

 

Go back on acitve duty, or hire on directly with a major airline.

SkyHigh

 

I would suggest using more data points than just this thread before making career decisions. If you need me to pay for your retirement, then yes, the Federal Gov't is the way to go. They will never go bankrupt as long as those of us in the private sector are paying taxes. I am fully able to take care of myself. I fund my own retirement as SWA has no company retirement.
Some are displeased with there jobs/careers/ lives ets. I am on the other end of the spectum though. All is great. I would not have dreamed of doing anything other than aviation. Life is what you make of it...no body owes you anything. Shoot for the stars...the moon ain't a bad consolation prize. Hope the following links are helpful. Oh, don't forget about Air Traffic Control (+/- $100k, +retirement)

DEA
http://www.dea.gov/job/agent/page-01.htm
FBI
http://www.fbi.gov/employment/faq.htm
ICE
http://www.ice.gov/graphics/news/new...rest031705.htm