Horizon Retiring the Jets in Favor of the Q400
 

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2008/0...ts.html?csp=34

Looks like we should all start training in the Q400. It's going to be different for sure in the next few years to come.

Being near the bottom of the seniority list, my only hope is that a lot of the jet guys would rather quit and go somewhere else than go drive a turboprop. I would say that things aren't looking all that good for me. I just hope attrition continues and the number of retirements go up.:(:(

So are they replacing the RJ, or are they getting rid of them all together? (Hiring or furloughing)

From a business standpoint it sounds smart, but I feel bad for all the RJ drivers there...

Any idea what's going to happen to the longer routes the -700 is used on like FAT-SEA or SBA-SEA? Are they going to be Q400 routes? Is mainline going to take over? They both seem like really long routes for the Q400.

i was thinking the same thing... interesting.

They want to get rid of all the 700s and 200s and be an all 400 fleet within 24 months. They will take their firm orders for the 400s, but probably only 1-2 of their options, if that. This will make Horizon a 48-50 all Q400 fleet, loss of about 15-17 planes. There was more talk about pulling out of smaller cities than larger ones, and while the 400 could do the longer routes, I have no idea if they really will or not, but I really hope they do.

According to Bombardier the range with 70 people is 1600NM. I know we currently have runs that are 500-600NM so another 100NM or so shouldn't hurt.

Don't worry Shaun, I called Pat. You, Adam, Danny, TJ and I can have our instructing job back but this time we have to pay him to have the opertunity to fly for him.

Dude, this sucks. Hopefully some options will be used.

well I'm glad they spent the money to have the rj's painted in the sports colors.....

The range of the Q wont be an issue. It is the distance where it becomes more expensive to fly the Q that a jet, believe it is around 600 miles where it starts to tilt back into favor with the jet.

Also I do not know why a jet guy would have a problem hopping into the Q. At Colgan with our Q's I am willing to bet it is an easier transition for a jet guy to fly the Q tha one of our Saab guys to fly it. The Q is very close to a jet with its technology, you have two more levers in the middle and it does not go quite as fast.

When did Horizon have -200s??

And anyways, maybe Horizon will set an example for the regional industry and remind other airlines that it is possible to operate an all-turboprop fleet productively. I'm sick of seeing the CRJ suck up 2x the fuel to fly the same amount of people across a state line.

Horizon had -200s (DHC8) for years up until just recently. I remember flying on one from SEA-YVR back when I was in high school. I think most if not all have found there way to Commutair.

Well, I guess I had better go and renew my CFI, and save some money to buy a job from Pat. You need to convince all the other jet guys that flying the prop would really suck, and they better go somewhere else instead.

My bad. Identifying DHC and CRJ is crucial when just using -200. More people refer -200 to the CRJ on these forums.

I knew they would eventually do this and it would not be good in terms of getting off reserve or even moving up in company. It was a tough decision to leave a couple months ago but i had to.

Compass is hiring..

Freezingflyboy,

We still have 12 or so Q200s. The company is trying to market these as we speak.

They are not expected to be gone before 2009.

This may be a good thing in the long run. If all regionals transition to prop fleets some good things can happen.
1. Regionals will fly shorter routes.
2. Longer routes will be serviced by larger jets (mainline carriers).
3. More people will get jobs flying bigger jets.
4. The airlines can all be more profitable.

The BEAVER jet. . .
 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the the RJ's that came back from Frontier had to be painted regardless so cost of repainting them was taken care of by Frontier as part of the contract, college colors or not.

I'm sorry to hear this guys. I really do hope there will be no furloughs. The biggest shock to me is to hear that as the 700's leave it doesn't sound like they are anxious to replace them with anything. This sounds like a classic case of QX not thinking outside of the "500 mile bubble". Conspicously absent from the earnings report was the issue of contracting out with a third party operator. I think this would be a huge mistake in my opinion. We'll see in the comming months. Times should be interesting. Just Remember to try and not let your happiness be tied to an airline...

But why are they going to do that? Regionals fly what the major partners want them to fly, and pax like jets (even if they use more fuel).

Majors still want MORE 90 seaters, and probably 70 seaters. The SKW President reiterated today that there are NO plans to add new turboprops to the fleet.

There are several MAJOR projects to build NEW 70/90 seat RJ's with advanced technology materials, systems, and engines (geared-turbofans).... Mitsubishi, China, and Russia.

Nobody is designing all-new turboprops...the geared turbofan engine will probably close the efficiency gap with the turboprop engine to the point that the extra complexity, low altitude, and slowness of the turboprop is not worth it.

Frontier did pay for the repainting.

Your right with regard to the technology side of things. I think managemnt tends to not factor in that aspect of the equation when making these decisions, and it comes bact to bite them. If they think the jet manufactuers will sit idly by and not try and improve and surpass the turbopros they are sadly mistaken.

plus..... and let me say.... that I commute on CRJ-200's to work.... the perception of the people i fly with when commuting is that the -200 hell even the 170's are "puddle jumpers" ( thats the words he used )..... lord knows what they will think if tons of TP's start showing up at the gate. I have nearly 1000 hours flying ATR-42's.... and that was when there were NOTHING but TP's ( well Biz EX had some 146's ) flying at this level.... and the customers were not overly fond of them then. Dont get me wrong.... I like TP's but the general opinion of the flying public is they would prefer not to fly them if they dont have to. Again, I will qualify that with it being my opinion...

If the airlines want them they better start a damn good PR campaign pushing them or it might bite them in the arse.

I suspect that, in general, Horizon's clientèle are familiar and comfortable with riding on turboprops. The vast majority of their fleet has been props for quite sometime. And the Q400 isn't exactly "your father's turboprop."

I've ridden on Horizon Q's numerous times and never heard the "dangerous little propeller plane" comment from one of their customers. I think the general public (outside of Horizon's customer base) will warm up to these new airplanes, provided a good safety record is maintained and the press highlights the benefits of them.

You are absolutely correct that people in small western towns are used to them...the only ride out of MY hometown was a metro. But most hub pax have a different attitude.

The ultimate problem with t-props is versatility...with an advanced engine a turbojet can serve both short and long routes effeciently. But the prop's speed becomes a hinderance the further it goes...even if the pax don't mind an extra hour on the segment length, you still have to pay the crew, do the Mx (based on flight hours), and pay the mortgage. Plus you can't use that airplane for another revenue flight until it gets to where it's going. The pax pay for distance, they won't pay more just because a flight takes longer and thus has higher overhead costs.

I thought that threatening to get rid of the jets was just a tactic by management to gain leverage over the pilot group during contract negotiations.

Lots of people fly them... doesnt mean the like them.....

I personally think its a good move... but rick makes some good points....

I can tell ya Delta is the one pushing our E175's to replace the E170's we already fly for them..... what do they gain? SIX more first class seats.... same with the 900's they have in service... and its my understanding they may be converting some of the 700's to a 2 class service.....

I suspect the Q400 can be bought in a 2 class config..... that might could be a huge selling point for some companies........

Cetainly some pax just plain dont care... but I believe more care than any of us would like to admit..... Im am positive Horizon will do fine with them.

I wonder what ever happened to the geared turbofans that both GE and P&W were so hot on in the late 80's when fuel prices went through the roof? They both had test a/c with one on the back that was about 30-35% more efficient and met noise limits. They were supposed to solve the TP's speed limitations, weren't they?

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propfan

Just had another thought....

I wonder how many air travelers honestly don't know (or care) if the airplane they're riding on has props or jets. Example:

My wife went on a flight not too long ago, and naturally I asked "What type of plane did you fly on?" She responded with silence and a blank look. I asked "Was it a propeller plane or a jet?" More silence.

I love my wife and she's incredibly intelligent... but some people just don't care, as long as the magic carpet takes them where they want to go. (Fade in Steppenwolf...)

I hear complaints, jokes, and crazy comments about my turboprop (BE-1900) all day long. That said, I still think that the top priority for most passengers is not safety, comfort, or noise level...they want the cheapest ticket. If it takes scads of turboprops to do such a thing, then the passengers will adapt. Also, having non-revved on the Q400 numerous times, I have never heard a passenger complaint, FWIW.

PW is currently testing a narrow-body sized geared turbofan, and will be certifying it in the upper-RJ thrust range. The bombardier C-series and the Mitsubishi RJ will both use this engine, and I'm betting others will get on board fast.

On that note, the Mitsubishi RJ looks pretty good on paper...they fixed most traditional RJ pax annoyances and threw in a lot fuel-effecient technology.

I think GE and Rolls are holding out for more technology before comitting to GTF vs. Open Rotor, but they will have to decide before the Boeing and Airbus next-gen narrowbody designing starts in earnest.

Where will all those CRJ's be going???

Overseas........India probably.

ANA has signed up for the MRJ, which indicates that they think it's a good product...they would NOT buy something just because it's made in Japan.

The Russian and Chinese RJ's will likely find initial customers domestically, but I think both will be certified to FAA standards, which will ensure their acceptance anywhere in the world.

Watch out world! We at Horizon are shrinking our way to world dominance!


PS

Hi, LaMar!

HAHAHAHHAA

Seriously this is their motto. Gerheart told me himself. Then I laughed and walked away.

Sounds like the June Q400 class was canceled but the class of 8 starting this thursday (Q4) is still scheduled to start.

That is officially true. I have a friend in the may class. All I can say is I guess you can get in and work for about a year then possibly be furloughed. My guess is that there is still more info to come.

Rumor has it that there is a survey out asking Alaska pilots what their thoughts are on bringing a third party in, since HORIZON is losing money and thats the reason they are having to fight for a raise. If they got someone cheaper to fly it they could get their money back.

OHHHH MANNNNNNNN Im stirring the pot on this one.:rolleyes:

That's the problem with being highly compensated in the regional world. Colgan now operates Q400's...how's the horizon scope?

It will be VERY interesting to see how the AK pilot group deals with this issue. Senior pilot groups generally have a poor record when it comes to taking care of their regional affiliates...hopefully they will do the right thing.

Horizon is gonna be a horrible place to be within 6 months. 20 Q400's will not be exercised. My guess is 170 furloughs.