JetBlue job and lifestyle questions
07-04-2018, 02:00 PM
#41
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Also, the use of the phrase "mutually agreeable" is suspicious.
What it doesn't say is that "the pilot is under no obligation to mutually agree to anything an no consequence shall be applied to the pilot for not reaching an agreement". Right now they can read mutually agreeable and attach strings to the situation. For example, they can give you 5 pairings that you agree to, or else they will assign you to one, then give you the option to back out of it using PTO. The strict letter of the contract says mutually agreeable but doesn't say they CAN'T put pressure on you to mutually agree.
BJ already does this in other places. For example, if you don't extend the extra 2 hours, you are FORCED to file a Fatigue Report OR ELSE you write a report detailing why you didn't extend (IRR I think). Since you didn't file a Fatigue Report (which cannot have retribution), you are alternatively filing a report which CAN have retribution. So they took an FAA rule, then attached negative consequences to exercising Option B.
This contract must have language that disallows them from attaching any consequences to Option B. Overall this contract is very open ended and doesn't stop BJ from retribution or persuasion if a pilot chooses Option B,C,D, etc...
The Railway Labor Act Simplified
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
What it doesn't say is that "the pilot is under no obligation to mutually agree to anything an no consequence shall be applied to the pilot for not reaching an agreement". Right now they can read mutually agreeable and attach strings to the situation. For example, they can give you 5 pairings that you agree to, or else they will assign you to one, then give you the option to back out of it using PTO. The strict letter of the contract says mutually agreeable but doesn't say they CAN'T put pressure on you to mutually agree.
BJ already does this in other places. For example, if you don't extend the extra 2 hours, you are FORCED to file a Fatigue Report OR ELSE you write a report detailing why you didn't extend (IRR I think). Since you didn't file a Fatigue Report (which cannot have retribution), you are alternatively filing a report which CAN have retribution. So they took an FAA rule, then attached negative consequences to exercising Option B.
This contract must have language that disallows them from attaching any consequences to Option B. Overall this contract is very open ended and doesn't stop BJ from retribution or persuasion if a pilot chooses Option B,C,D, etc...
The Railway Labor Act Simplified
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
07-04-2018, 02:37 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 247
Originally Posted by Mattio
Right, but you quoted me and I wasn't speaking about your first day of reserve. "♪There's misdirection in the air... ♪♪♪" I feel like that should be a song and, perhaps, the anthem of APC.
Originally Posted by nuball5
Oh please! Yes you were. You think a commuter cares about being in the early Silo in the middle of their sequence? Tell me how that effects their time away from home?
The gripe you have about the early 3-day trips is just how reserve works obviously.
The gripe you have about the early 3-day trips is just how reserve works obviously.
Some commuters might not like to get abused for a dozen days straight... Some of them actually like exploring their base city, have friends nearby, or have a nice pad. That's why I go back to my original point, it's not as attractive an option to have the long blocks of reserve days as DontCallMeCindy thinks it is. When he/she questions why more people aren't raving about it, maybe the proof is in the pudding?
07-04-2018, 02:38 PM
#43
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,231
Originally Posted by Bozo the pilot
Where is the dependability policy in the TA? I honestly couldnt find it.
Are you talking about the Commuter Policy, Section 18?
Are you talking about the Commuter Policy, Section 18?
This is a copy paste from what I assume is JB AIP commute policy:
Pilots utilizing OAL to commute:
a. A commuting Pilot not reporting on time for required duty must be able to
verify he was present and listed (a digital record of a CASS listing
satisfies this requirement) on two (2) consecutive flights and both were
scheduled to arrive in sufficient time to allow him to report on time (a
commute with two (2) or more legs is considered one (1) flight for the
purpose of this Section).
b. Being rolled over from one flight to the next on the same airline satisfies
this requirement.
c. Adequate time between different flights that depart from different ends of
the same airport must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
d. Additional travel time should be taken into consideration by the Pilot on
days with adverse weather conditions.
e. Travel time between arrival terminals must be taken into consideration by
the Pilot.
B. Commuting Strategy
A commuting Pilot who complies with the requirements of this Section shall not be
subject to discipline based on missed commute unless there is evidence that the mis-
commutes are the result of inadequate planning by the Pilot. A Chief Pilot may discuss
patterns of commuting problems with the Pilot in an effort to resolve such issues by
identifying the source of the problem and assisting in developing alternative commuting
strategies. Repeated mis-commutes may be considered in evaluations of a commuting
Pilot’s overall dependability.
For reference, here is NK:
Commuter Policy
1. A pilot commuting to duty shall plan for a minimum of two separate flights that
will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time. If the first flight is
oversold, delayed, or canceled, or if the pilot is denied a jumpseat or boarding for
any reason, he shall notify Crew Scheduling as soon as practical.
2. Crew Scheduling, at its discretion, shall take one of the following actions:
a. Purchase a ticket for the pilot on the next available flight.
b. Advise the pilot to attempt to board the second flight through normal
means (e.g., jumpseat, nonrev travel, or OA passes).
3. If for any reason, a pilot is denied boarding on the second planned commuter
flight, he shall immediately notify Crew Scheduling, and Crew Scheduling shall
assign one of the following options:
a. Assign the pilot an open trip pairing, in consideration of the remaining
commuter flights available, and any required rest and duty limitations, so
that a pilot will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time
for the newly assigned trip.
b. Assign the pilot to reserve duty for no more than the same number of
calendar days of his original missed trip pairing (e.g., a pilot who misses
a scheduled trip pairing of three calendar days may be assigned to no
more than three calendar reserve duty days).
c. Release the pilot from all duty in a non-pay status for the missed trip
pairing (i.e., deduct the pay credit for the missed trip pairing from his
pay).
4. A pilot who keeps accurate records of his scheduled commuter flights and
otherwise complies with the provisions of this commuter policy shall not be
subject to discipline for missing trip pairings due to denied boarding.
5. A pilot may use the commuter policy as necessary with no limitations.
Aside from the obvious difference: I don't have to take into account that I actually have to walk from one terminal to another, as long as I list for two flights that arrive before check-in at my base, I am ALWAYS covered, there is the the "D" word at the end of section B.
07-04-2018, 02:43 PM
#44
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,231
Originally Posted by queue
They allowed it because (1) this defeated pilot group failed to keep B6ALPA accountable to the mission, (2) they sold you out.
If you vote yes, you will further be part of the problem. That's just the truth. If you want to work within the process, then it gives you the chance to Vote NO and to make ALPA work for your 1.9%+ to get you a better TA 2.0.
If you vote yes, you will further be part of the problem. That's just the truth. If you want to work within the process, then it gives you the chance to Vote NO and to make ALPA work for your 1.9%+ to get you a better TA 2.0.
I don't vote, i'm at NK
IDWH = I Don't Work Here
07-04-2018, 03:06 PM
#45
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Originally Posted by symbian simian
Just to make sure:
I don't vote, i'm at NK
IDWH = I Don't Work Here
I don't vote, i'm at NK
IDWH = I Don't Work Here
My mistake for thinking you were B6.
I hope you guys keep fighting. What's good for you is good for the industry. Our employers keep putting us in artificial tiers which act as fake glass ceilings. There's no reason why one Airbus pilot shouldn't make the same from one airline to another. It's our fault as pilots for allowing the industry to treat us like expendable, highly replaceable assets.
The Railway Labor Act Simplified
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
07-04-2018, 05:52 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 2,594
Originally Posted by symbian simian
This is a copy paste from what I assume is JB AIP commute policy:
Pilots utilizing OAL to commute:
a. A commuting Pilot not reporting on time for required duty must be able to
verify he was present and listed (a digital record of a CASS listing
satisfies this requirement) on two (2) consecutive flights and both were
scheduled to arrive in sufficient time to allow him to report on time (a
commute with two (2) or more legs is considered one (1) flight for the
purpose of this Section).
b. Being rolled over from one flight to the next on the same airline satisfies
this requirement.
c. Adequate time between different flights that depart from different ends of
the same airport must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
d. Additional travel time should be taken into consideration by the Pilot on
days with adverse weather conditions.
e. Travel time between arrival terminals must be taken into consideration by
the Pilot.
B. Commuting Strategy
A commuting Pilot who complies with the requirements of this Section shall not be
subject to discipline based on missed commute unless there is evidence that the mis-
commutes are the result of inadequate planning by the Pilot. A Chief Pilot may discuss
patterns of commuting problems with the Pilot in an effort to resolve such issues by
identifying the source of the problem and assisting in developing alternative commuting
strategies. Repeated mis-commutes may be considered in evaluations of a commuting
Pilot’s overall dependability.
For reference, here is NK:
Commuter Policy
1. A pilot commuting to duty shall plan for a minimum of two separate flights that
will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time. If the first flight is
oversold, delayed, or canceled, or if the pilot is denied a jumpseat or boarding for
any reason, he shall notify Crew Scheduling as soon as practical.
2. Crew Scheduling, at its discretion, shall take one of the following actions:
a. Purchase a ticket for the pilot on the next available flight.
b. Advise the pilot to attempt to board the second flight through normal
means (e.g., jumpseat, nonrev travel, or OA passes).
3. If for any reason, a pilot is denied boarding on the second planned commuter
flight, he shall immediately notify Crew Scheduling, and Crew Scheduling shall
assign one of the following options:
a. Assign the pilot an open trip pairing, in consideration of the remaining
commuter flights available, and any required rest and duty limitations, so
that a pilot will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time
for the newly assigned trip.
b. Assign the pilot to reserve duty for no more than the same number of
calendar days of his original missed trip pairing (e.g., a pilot who misses
a scheduled trip pairing of three calendar days may be assigned to no
more than three calendar reserve duty days).
c. Release the pilot from all duty in a non-pay status for the missed trip
pairing (i.e., deduct the pay credit for the missed trip pairing from his
pay).
4. A pilot who keeps accurate records of his scheduled commuter flights and
otherwise complies with the provisions of this commuter policy shall not be
subject to discipline for missing trip pairings due to denied boarding.
5. A pilot may use the commuter policy as necessary with no limitations.
Aside from the obvious difference: I don't have to take into account that I actually have to walk from one terminal to another, as long as I list for two flights that arrive before check-in at my base, I am ALWAYS covered, there is the the "D" word at the end of section B.
Pilots utilizing OAL to commute:
a. A commuting Pilot not reporting on time for required duty must be able to
verify he was present and listed (a digital record of a CASS listing
satisfies this requirement) on two (2) consecutive flights and both were
scheduled to arrive in sufficient time to allow him to report on time (a
commute with two (2) or more legs is considered one (1) flight for the
purpose of this Section).
b. Being rolled over from one flight to the next on the same airline satisfies
this requirement.
c. Adequate time between different flights that depart from different ends of
the same airport must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
d. Additional travel time should be taken into consideration by the Pilot on
days with adverse weather conditions.
e. Travel time between arrival terminals must be taken into consideration by
the Pilot.
B. Commuting Strategy
A commuting Pilot who complies with the requirements of this Section shall not be
subject to discipline based on missed commute unless there is evidence that the mis-
commutes are the result of inadequate planning by the Pilot. A Chief Pilot may discuss
patterns of commuting problems with the Pilot in an effort to resolve such issues by
identifying the source of the problem and assisting in developing alternative commuting
strategies. Repeated mis-commutes may be considered in evaluations of a commuting
Pilot’s overall dependability.
For reference, here is NK:
Commuter Policy
1. A pilot commuting to duty shall plan for a minimum of two separate flights that
will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time. If the first flight is
oversold, delayed, or canceled, or if the pilot is denied a jumpseat or boarding for
any reason, he shall notify Crew Scheduling as soon as practical.
2. Crew Scheduling, at its discretion, shall take one of the following actions:
a. Purchase a ticket for the pilot on the next available flight.
b. Advise the pilot to attempt to board the second flight through normal
means (e.g., jumpseat, nonrev travel, or OA passes).
3. If for any reason, a pilot is denied boarding on the second planned commuter
flight, he shall immediately notify Crew Scheduling, and Crew Scheduling shall
assign one of the following options:
a. Assign the pilot an open trip pairing, in consideration of the remaining
commuter flights available, and any required rest and duty limitations, so
that a pilot will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time
for the newly assigned trip.
b. Assign the pilot to reserve duty for no more than the same number of
calendar days of his original missed trip pairing (e.g., a pilot who misses
a scheduled trip pairing of three calendar days may be assigned to no
more than three calendar reserve duty days).
c. Release the pilot from all duty in a non-pay status for the missed trip
pairing (i.e., deduct the pay credit for the missed trip pairing from his
pay).
4. A pilot who keeps accurate records of his scheduled commuter flights and
otherwise complies with the provisions of this commuter policy shall not be
subject to discipline for missing trip pairings due to denied boarding.
5. A pilot may use the commuter policy as necessary with no limitations.
Aside from the obvious difference: I don't have to take into account that I actually have to walk from one terminal to another, as long as I list for two flights that arrive before check-in at my base, I am ALWAYS covered, there is the the "D" word at the end of section B.
Its not an impactful part of the TA, but I appreciate the effort SS.
Now best of luck with the Spirit lifestyle threads.
07-04-2018, 06:33 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,002
Originally Posted by Mattio
I'm pretty sure I know what I was talking about... lol You start accusing me of trying to change tack when I haven't. I just have to laugh (and probably ignore you from this point on because you are clearly not worth responding to.) Of course I'm complaining about how reserve works! You got that part right! There's not nearly enough language to control how the silo assignments work and the language that exists punishes seniority in many cases!
Some commuters might not like to get abused for a dozen days straight... Some of them actually like exploring their base city, have friends nearby, or have a nice pad. That's why I go back to my original point, it's not as attractive an option to have the long blocks of reserve days as DontCallMeCindy thinks it is. When he/she questions why more people aren't raving about it, maybe the proof is in the pudding?
Some commuters might not like to get abused for a dozen days straight... Some of them actually like exploring their base city, have friends nearby, or have a nice pad. That's why I go back to my original point, it's not as attractive an option to have the long blocks of reserve days as DontCallMeCindy thinks it is. When he/she questions why more people aren't raving about it, maybe the proof is in the pudding?
07-04-2018, 07:42 PM
#48
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,445
Originally Posted by Bozo the pilot
Well at least you found the gnat sh!t in all that pepper.
Its not an impactful part of the TA, but I appreciate the effort SS.
Now best of luck with the Spirit lifestyle threads.
Its not an impactful part of the TA, but I appreciate the effort SS.
Now best of luck with the Spirit lifestyle threads.
You realize half our pilots commute right? Why oh why are you defending this turd?
07-04-2018, 07:50 PM
#49
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Originally Posted by Bozo the pilot
Well at least you found the gnat sh!t in all that pepper.
Its not an impactful part of the TA, but I appreciate the effort SS.
Now best of luck with the Spirit lifestyle threads.
Its not an impactful part of the TA, but I appreciate the effort SS.
Now best of luck with the Spirit lifestyle threads.
Are you back at your chemical dependency again Bozo?
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
07-04-2018, 08:46 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by Bozo the pilot
Well at least you found the gnat sh!t in all that pepper.
Its not an impactful part of the TA, but I appreciate the effort SS.
Now best of luck with the Spirit lifestyle threads.
Its not an impactful part of the TA, but I appreciate the effort SS.
Now best of luck with the Spirit lifestyle threads.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
