So to be clear a merger with virgin is a minor change?

And to go full circle in this argument I never justified the CBA based on scope. My original comment was about guys thinking it’s worthless....oh yay we got scope who cares....that stuff.

As Robin said, it was a short notice small window of opportunity to make a play to overnight add an already existing west coast network when other organic west coast strategies have so far failed to really materialize, and west coast access to gates/slots remains limited. This, coupled with merging with an airline with a similar culture/product made sense. Yes, it'd have been a big change from the "organic all the way" mantra. But it was an overnight solution to a thus far unsolved long term problem. That is in stark contrast to bringing on a fleet of outsourced RJs, in an upgauging slot/gate constrained environment, which wouldn't solve any issues that currently plague JetBlue. Both scenarios would cause a lot of issues at JetBlue...but at least the Virgin merger would have solved a major problem in the process.

You can't really use the attempted Virgin acquisition in an argument about protecting yourself from outsourced RJs. If JetBlue wanted outsourced RJs, they would have had them. But as pointed out multiple times, we don't have gate space or slots for RJs. We are upgauging (significantly)...not downgauging. The blowback from outsourcing our flying, during a labor dispute, with a regional pilot shortage and massive major hiring, would have blown this operation up even further, and there is a 0.00002% chance JB management would have done that. That is why RJ scope didn't take much negotiating capital. Yes it is important. The most important section. But in this case it wasn't a sole reason to vote yes. And our section 1 has plenty of holes in it anyway as has also been pointed out. So it was good, but not great by any means.

All. Of. This.

This is where your argument died.

Exactly.
It they could have made a case for it where FFD was profitable now then or in the future it would or would have happened and still may. It’s really conjecture at this point. We got what we got and we’ve moved forward.

You have a partial point, but the rest of what he wrote was spot on.

Also, not merging is not a business plan, it's a lie told to employees to make them believe they don't need a union and/or believe in "culture".

So attempting to acquire Virgin wasn't a change in business plan, just a violation of the fake culture.

Acquiring Virgin solved a perpetual problem for the company, trying to outsource RJs violates the laws of physics with respect to infrastructure, pilots, and their LCC cost-cutting business plan.

Business plan! Strategy! You guys must be getting different emails than I am.

Yeah, no doubt!

Could’ve been our west coast strategy-

https://airlinegeeks.com/2018/01/01/...bank-to-vegas/

http://https://airlinegeeks.com/wp-c...2/IMG_0571.jpg

Seriously guys... we’ve got a moat. Well grow organically because we have culture.

Please pick up open time outside the CBA LOA to help the company. If it’s good for blue, it’s good for you.

You guys make me laugh. Since the day I got here all I heard was organic growth organic growth. We want no part of a merger it would be against everything we built over and over and over. Until one day all of that was not true. (Well it was a short window)Sure we are limited on the coast one of our big problems but what if the wanted some kind of odd rj operation in say Kansas City to expand away from the gate restricted coasts? Remember we need to grow somewhere.

I don’t know what could happen I’m just saying to act like it couldn’t while JetBlue absolutely has no issue with changing the direction of the company seems crazy. I don’t think scope should be the sole reason for the contract btw, and I’m not sure it was sold as well we got scope ignore everything else and vote yes.


My overall point is I don’t trust this management team at all and I want every roadblock to their ideas that we can come up with. ( I think we all agree on this part)

The CBA allows Moxy to be our version of Alaska’s Horizon Air.

See we win! No RJ’s. We killed a dead model.

But allowed brand neutral domestic code sharing on narrow body aircraft.

We keep looking backwards.

You need to look both ways. History (backwards) shows scope is an important issue. We keep thinking everything is static. What is to stop the government from changing the 1500 hour rule and flooding the market again with low time pilots flying RJs. Might happen might not. Also if it is a dead model reading the United forums it seems their management keeps pushing for scope relief, but at the same time Delta is going way more mainline but also growing a chunk (not all) of their new delta hub with RJs. So it’s all over the place.

I agree about the domestic codeshare it’s definitely an issue we need to address. (Or should have)

I also agree we keep looking back the vote is over we have a CBA our focus should be on what to work on next.

Organic growth wasn't a business model, it was a marketing slogan to the employees.

When a dead dinosaur costs 60 cents a gallon then I’ll worry about blueJet and RJ’s.

Our fear valued something that has no value and it was used to sell this POS.

It’s text book cognitive dissonance.

I really have to disagree. It seems like a business model to me. Well we are going to do it all alone or we will look for opportunities to buy or merge with someone to expand as fast as we can.

So would you have been fine if there was no scope?

We have scope like we have industry leading pairing parameters.

Words on paper but really does not affect jetblue business.

I like the alter ego stuff the real merger language. That is stuff I hope we use.

Capacity purchase agreement? For what? To feed core seats to FLL.

Irrational fears leads to grasping and cliches.

It's not a business model because they will pursue mergers/acquisitions when it suits them. That's what they will and have DONE. They have looked under the hood of at least 3 airlines that I know of, one of them was very public (nearly after the fact).

What they SAY, is organic growth, which is a marketing slogan to the employees.

Not what I asked.
Would you have accepted the CBA (if everything else was great) with no scope? It’s worth nothing anyway right.

Ok fine. When I sat there and watched the presentations at investor day (days) since I have been here. They said we believe in organic growth, we aren’t interested in destroying our “culture” the secret sauce of JetBlue that fuels our business and makes us different. We believe that culture is why people fly us and on and on

I guess that isn’t a business plan.

So when in and out says we want to grow without franchising and keep control of everything that isn’t a business plan?

I would think the original business plan was to bring humanity to air travel and part of that was to remain independent (nope)

Keep the culture
(Killing it everyday)

No first class
(Hello mint)

Standard cabins all the same leg room
(Hello eml)

Not following the other guys
(Sure we will charge for bags)

Only one type of plane
(Nope)

Soon we will have basic economy fares.


Now I still say telling the investors of all people that you believe in organic growth is definitely a business plan. All of the other stuff as well as the merger is simply a company changing plans and ideas. I don’t have an issue with it, adapt or die. I’m just saying I don’t trust the company. If they are willing to change all of the above why not other things?

I don’t think anybody is arguing we should have had no scope. The argument being addressed is that this CBA is/was a “win” or a “must vote yes to lock in scope” because it has scope. All you yes voters seem to point to scope and say “see! I told you so! Now we are protected from big bad RJs! They were coming it was just a matter of time!....” Meanwhile no voters (and BD who I think voted yes) point out facts that support the notion that RJs weren’t going to happen anyway and your “win” was basically a zero cost item, and that it still has flaws as it currently is. And then you and CoolHand retort with silly ideas like “look at the virgin acquisition attempt...see? We were gonna get RJs if we voted it down” (which btw sounds as silly as some of the junk on cnn).

The CBA is largely a turd, but many yes voters point back to scope as the justification for their decision and/or their retrospective “win,” when the reality is RJ scope wasn’t really on the table, despite N8’s fear/sell job. The scope we do have still has plenty of holes.

So yeah, we absolutely need scope. That’s not even a question...I don’t think anyone engaged in this discussion is saying otherwise. In fact we need better scope. But we also need a better CBA outside of just section 1, and we voted in a substandard, industry lagging one. Now we are back full circle with you about to say “it’s not lagging...we have the 2nd best scope section of all the majors and that’s what’s important. Are you willing to give that up for the rest of the CBA to be average/leading?”

Hopefully next round, all the fearful ones of the past will have the stones to demand/hold out for more and have a higher self-worth. Every negotiating cycle, at every airline, CBA or not (even daddy D) Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt comes out during voting time. It’s always something with FUDsters who have an agenda. The economy. RJs. Airplanes. More flying. Cost. Profitability. Sustainability. Blah blah blah.


Edit: TL;DR version:
You guys keep appearing to say we had a binary choice: scope or decent contract...or that we had only that one opportunity to vote in scope. That wasn’t the case at all.

I voted "NO" with whatever you think is in there right now.

So ... you figure it out.

Again not what I asked but a standard answer from you.

I never said you need to vote for the CBA because of scope.

I never said it was a binary choice

I never said RJs were coming anytime now

I never said we don’t need a better CBA, that’s pretty much sop otherwise why negotiate every few years? Even Delta pilots want a better CBA.

I never said because we tried to buy virgin well we are getting RJs if we vote this down.

I was simply pointing out stuff the company said it would never do was rapidly done or tried.

The last point in the circle is just a question of if the rest of the CBA was good and there was no scope would you vote yes. People seem to say well the company wouldn’t do RJs and it’s a dead model and worth nothing so if that’s the case yes some would vote for a contract that was great in other areas but left scope open because it won’t happen and is worthless.

Anyway round and round this could go.

Oh missed but everything else was great.

When you say scope what are you referring too?

I see B2, C, D and E as good.

The fixation of RJs being scoped out as having any value is what I’m referring too.

So yes if everything else was good to great I would have voted yes.

Personally, no, I would not advise a yes vote without RJ scope, but that's also partially because I know it costs us nothing to get RJ scope anyway. You know, because the company has no viable use for them...

I hear ya, thanks

Makes sense

Well you either believe in a CBA or you dont. If nothing is binding then why get such a nosebleed? By your logic, anything that we signed is worthless anyway. Good luck sleeping at night..;)

This guy gets it.

RJs.

R

Jays.

It was a center piece of the contract.

It’s a mirage. From a business standpoint. We got it cause it has zero value to blueJet.

Instead we have unlimited narrow body code sharing DOMESTICALLY.

United pilots have been saying the same thing, then United brings in this:

https://simpleflying.com/united-reveals-first-15-routes-for-new-bombardier-crj-550-aircraft/

Compass just lost their Delta flying, and already have an ERJ operation. How cheap do you think they would have done our 190 flying to stay in business?

And here I thought the center piece was a roughly 30% pay increase and all the bells and whistles associated with an enforceable CBA

And legit Vacation

You got a pay increase? And exactly what bells and whistles were added that make you all excited about this PO..I mean CBA?

it’s self evident. I can recommend a remedial math course if you’d like

Not self evident to most. You must be middle to pretty junior in seniority. Those are the guys who are salivating over this substandard POS. But hey, it's better than your regional you came from right? Or are you a Cape Air kid?

Look, if the numbers are hard for you there are people who can help