Ahhhh....OK. It's clear now. Code words again. "the greater cause of airline flying." "improving their lot" "partners to their future" "players in deciding their destiny" All meaning Guys, please unionize. I really wish you'd just say that instead of dancing around it. It would have saved us a lot of time.

So I'll agree to being at an impasse, because we haven't built up the requisite animosity in JB to unionize. Who knows what will happen in the future -- maybe all you nay-sayers will turn out to have been incredibly insightful and not just greedy. I swear I will be the first to apologize and admit it. But having people at other airlines really really wanting us to unionize so that they have a chance to get paid more isn't a good enough argument.

I must admit that I'm confused by your saying that you just want us to think, argue, and defend, when I keep seeing well-thought-out argument after well-thought-out argument (and I'm not talking about me -- I'm a relatively recent poster) on the JB side summarily ignored and countered by "yeah, but you REALLY should get paid more. And unionize." over and over and over again from the other.

And I truly fail to see how "Actually, I really enjoy my job" in the face of "no you don't! your job sucks and your company sucks and you're a bunch of brain-dead freaks!" comes off as cocky.

btw, diamonddd, that was hilarious.:D

OK. An eternal contract would be better than a 5-year automatically-renewing contract. I'll give you that.

But I think my point is that I'd rather have even a 1-year contract and a promise to keep renewing from an organization I trusted than a 50 year contract from someone I was certain would just as soon kick me to the pavement and who even now had lawyers whose job it was to find ways out of the contract.

Once the trust is breached all bets are off, mind you. But I prefer to live in an atmosphere of "let's make this work, it's better for all of us" rather than "show me in writing, because your words are worth nothing." And you're entitled to your opinion, but it's pretty presumptious to tell JB pilots "you think it's a good thing, but it's a bad thing."

didn't they have to stay competitive with the jetblue's and airtrans and get their payscales in line?

what will happen when everyone comes down to these rates? My buddy at airtran says management wants a 12% increase in productivity either though pay cuts or work rule changes to get that competitive advantage that they are losing back. If the LCC have such a great business plan that is so better then the majors can't they pay the same while still doing it better and cheaper?

do people really not think that the LCC's haven't lowered the bar. you may be happy with what you make but it still lowered the bar. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills and watching Zoolander where no one sees that ferrari, le tigra and magnum are all the same look.

Imagine having to sit in the right seat of the 190 for 4 years. It may not be that way now but it will be in the future as you grow. The bar has definately been lowered.

eric

Originally posted by SitBackRelax
Ahhhh....OK. It's clear now. Code words again. "the greater cause of airline flying." "improving their lot" "partners to their future" "players in deciding their destiny" All meaning Guys, please unionize. I really wish you'd just say that instead of dancing around it. It would have saved us a lot of time.



Ok you caught me. I figured using the U word would just shut some of you down. Hey I work at a place without a credit union, we have a credit association


SitBackRelax
So I'll agree to being at an impasse, because we haven't built up the requisite animosity in JB to unionize. Who knows what will happen in the future -- maybe all you nay-sayers will turn out to have been incredibly insightful and not just greedy. I swear I will be the first to apologize and admit it. But having people at other airlines really really wanting us to unionize so that they have a chance to get paid more isn't a good enough argument.




I guess animosity is one reason to unionize, but I would disagree that it is either nessary or required to do so. And greed has nothing to do with it either (see pay and benefits of all lecacy carriers and most unionised freight and commuters). Let me give some examples that will make my point.

When you buy a house, do you pay the asking price or try to convince the seller to accept less??
When your (company's) owners/management buy jet's from Airbus, do (did)
they pay the asking price from Airbus or did they to come to some agreement that was (for JB) more favorible??;)
When you bought your car, did you pay the price on the sticker??

To save you the trouble of answering no to all the above (on the other hand if you do say yes to question 1 and/or 3, I gotta..........you'll just love..) :D

I know, using lots of word to say, negoiate your compensation. Don't just accept that the largest, most expensive idiem you possess (your time and skill) is or will be compensated fairly. You wouldn't think of buying a house without a contract yet you work without one. Which will have a greater affect on your life style and happiness, the home you worked hard to not over pay for, or your job?? Should you default all major decisions regarding pay, retirement, QOL, etc to your employer, who's first duty is to keeping cost as low as possible to increase value to the stockholders??

Maybe you think your getting paid what your worth, fair enough. We'll talk again if some other up start invades (JB) turf with lower fares made possible by pilots/FA's/rampers working for less than you are:eek:

As far as being happy with your job, it was a given (by me at least) that you would be. Your defending your company/non-union status/pay, your debating on this forum with those who's opinion is different. If I was in your shoes, I probably would do the same. I like to believe though that I, would be thinking about how to improve on what I have (and I don't think its greedy to want more).

I'm not happy with what I make. How much is enough? It never is. The 190 rates are an insult to me and they are an insult to everyone who works here. The good news is that those wheels are turned by Jetblue pilots and we have a chance to be a sucessful company and raise the rates that were forced upon us.

The problems with this industry are reflective of a free market economy left unchecked by government and incredibly high energy prices. We've got people in this country losing their livelihoods and greedy scumbags up top taking it all in and justifying it with a wink and a nod from Uncle Sam. Where is the outrage there?

When a LCC with the lowest CASM in the industry ...with a proven product...and still can't make money, could it be possible that the problem is somewhere else?

Take the other pill dude. The ones you're on ain't working.

see? like i said; it's a religion. they will not be swayed by mere common sense.

I see you had nothing to offer the last time I replied to you. Please enlighten me with your common sense.

Ok, here is a question for anyone who cares to answer. Why doesn't JB form their own union like Southwest. I believe SWA has SWAPA. Maybe Jetblue can form JBAPA or something like that. Honestly I don't know if I would vote in ALPA. I don't see where they have been helping their pilots much. They are all losing their pensions and pay. They keep giving in to managment. Though, I have got to say, I think the best thing for the industry is Reregulaton by the government but, I could be and probably are wrong in saying that.

you work for **** pay on a contract that might be renewable in five years or you may just find out you ****ed the wrong guy off and are out on the street to start over again. your 190 payrates look like an even bigger pile. but it's a great place to work.

SJS.

Let's put it this way, Bill. If that 5-yr "maybe" renewable contract ever *didn't* renew for someone, even the worst screwup on the property, we woudn't be having this conversation. There'd be a union drive on already. The system works on trust and if that's ever breached, you'd have 1300 very ****ed off pilots making phone calls and casting ballots.

The thing is, management knows this, so your implication that you could be on the street for not kissing enough ass is an empty one. It's not something I worry about.

it's like the elephant in the room; it's still there. are you really saying you don't understand the implications of a "renewable 5-year contract"? why not just hire everyone with the understanding it's a career without 5-year chunks? it may not be something you worry about today but the option is there to get rid of anyone who causes problems like, oh, say, union organizing.

i'm amazed that you guys either really don't get it or you think it's completely acceptable.

No, I'm saying that it's as much a check on management as it is on the pilots. Sure the potential for abuse is there. Contract abuse happens every day, but not here. If that changes, everything changes and it'll be airline/labor business as usual at JetBlue. Since they've been as good as their word so far, I give them the benefit of the doubt. But if they ever use the nuclear option on a pilot, no matter how deserving, rather than go through the contractual termination process, all bets are off.

It's called trust, Bill. Only time can tell whether it's been misplaced. You confuse that with naivete, but it's not.

BTW, I explained the value of a fixed term contract on another board just a while ago. I'll quote it here:

It's not a perfect system, but it's not a bad one either. There's more going on here than you seem to be aware of.

Bluey - just an honest question - how are you going to fix those rates without collective bargaining? If the rates were forced on you, how are you going to ever change them? Will management ever decide on its own that the time is right for a pay raise? I'm not suggesting ALPA, just asking a queston.

BlueDude - you're saying here that they have to pay you for the years remaining on your contract, even if you're furloughed? I've not heard of that in any other contract. Is there anything in your contract that says they have to furlough junior pilots first?

Two questions for you Bill:

1) How long are the contracts you work under at your airline?

2) Are you saying you can not be fired at your airline since you have union protection?

Respectfully,

JayDub

once we are off probation, we are considered permanent employees and not subject to the whims of management. sure we can be fired but it has to be for cause, not because somebodies contract ran out. and the union has been quite vigorous in their battles for pilot's jobs.

it is not perfect but it's better than a five-year contract.

yeah, that was my question, too since the post kinda made it sound like they had to buy you out. 10 to 1 they don't.

It's got to be painful when you enjoy a creative entity like Quentin Tarantino and all you have coming out of your own feeble brain is a couple of ad hominem attacks and some meaningless expletives.

Did I read this right, if you get furloughed, you get paid out for the rest of what ever is left on our 5 years?

If this is true wouldn't they just not renew who ever was up with their 5 year contract. That way they wouldn't furlough someone junior and have to pay them for the remainder of their contract.

i guess it hurts working for JB, huh?

actually, i think i summarized the JB experience in my post: 5 year contracts that may be renewed at the whim of management and low pay rates and going lower with the 190's. you probably have a lot of other things that are substandard but these first 2 would be plenty for me to look elsewhere.

i'm glad you enjoy it, though. sounds like a good place for you.

now, please join me in a reading from the book of airbus, chapter 320...

Yes, and yes. That's exactly right. They don't plan to furlough anyone, you see.

And Kill Bill, if you're going to make statements, at least try to read the replies before you repeat the same (mis)information. I thought I was pretty clear in my reply but you ignored it completely. Tell me why I should bother.

My thought exactly.

Respectfully,

JayDub

WADR, no one should ever think they or their airline are invulnerable to flight reductions and furloughs. The history of aviation shows otherwise.

Personally, I think JB pilots should seriously consider becoming unionized, and IMO to organize when "life is good" is a far better option to organizing when the winds turn from being a tail componenmt to a headwind.

And I would NOT consider ALPA, and I paid dues there for 35 years.

Just one man's opinion. :)

Keep hearing about a contract, just don't believe it is a real legally binding, take it court document. Has anyone ever sued, in any legal venue, and forced the parties involved, to live you to its terms??:rolleyes:

BLue Dude So if jetblue needed to reduce the pilot staff why would they ever furlough if they had to pay out someones contract? Wouldn't they just not renew whoever was ending the 5 year contract and save money that way. They then wouldn't be furloughing out of order they just aren't renewing a contract.

..and you did look elsewhere. Congratulations!! You cracked the code! Thanks for playing. See ya!

Jeeeez, you guys are like friggin timeshare salesmen! Our pilot group doesn't want a union right now. I really don't care who understands it or doesn't. Talking about it is fine, we do it all the time at work, but all this kind of babble does is make me think "man, if I'm ever in the position where I feel the need to spend hours talking at another pilot group to try to convince them they're clueless, then it's time to leave the industry." So no, no union for now. At some point we may decide we want one. Until then, I'll thank you to give me my free digital camera and weekend in Orlando and I'll move on.

WRONG, Sir! WRONG! They have enlightened me. I now know we must have a union. I have to start a pairing tomorrow, so I plan to start out the morning angry. I will kick my dog in the ribs as I leave. I will back into my neighbors mailbox. I will poor-mouth JetBlue to the pilots for the carrier I commute on. I will refuse to download bluebooks or check my email. I will fart when I walk past the CP's office. I will not flush the toilet after I drop a deuce in the pilots lounge restroom. I will show up at the gate 48 minutes before scheduled push. I will not tell the cabin crew that we appreciate all they do. I will do the walk around but I won't look in the pitot tubes. On my PA's I will say all of those things that we are not supposed to say per Bushy's PA guide. I will say words like "Late, turbulence, thunderstorms, Yankees suck, I will say that Isreal smells like goats, I will ask for a "wind check" on taxi out. Enroute to RSW, I will begin the complaining just outta ten. I will tell the guy I am flying with how the only way to operate is with a union. I will show him the cards I have from the two previous unions to which I belonged. I don't know, yet, how I will answer when he inevitably asks "Why are you not still there, then?", but I will use some cool catch-phrases like :partners in our future, brotherhood, protecting the profession, leaving it better than when I got there, contract, no furlough clause (oops, I should prolly leave that one out), job security (OOPS, that one too). At RSW, I will tell the F/A's that I am NOT cleaning, and that my job is to fly the airplane. Then I will point to my shoulder boards. "See?" I will mumble the words "this friggin' place" at various intervals throughout my day.
When I am done, and I am at the hotel tonight on my layover, I will get on the internet pilot message boards and moan wildly about Jetblue because I think it makes me feel very good inside. In fact, it makes me feel like a "Big Man". I will call all of my other furloughed buddies that found work with Eagle, Trans States, netjets, Pakistani Air Cargo, Big Jim's tatoo parlor and flight school, etc...and I will tell them how much better off they are than me.

Yep, I gots me a plan and that's how it's going to go down.

Now your getting with the program!!:p

[QUOTE=SitBackRelax............. So no, no union for now. At some point we may decide we want one. Until then,............ [/QUOTE]

You will be at MAX power, stick shaker, looking at the trees:eek:

i find it absolutely amazing that the JB guys here don't get my point. i don't care whether you agree with it or not since it's no sweat off my extremities but to continually claim you don't understand the point i've clearly made is, well, odd.

you make substandard wages, even more substandard than the rest of us and going lower with the 190's and you have that 5-year sword hanging over you that you like to pretend doesn't exist. i hate to break this news to you (again) but santa ain't in the airline business. virtually every single start-up LCC was created for one reason: to pay gigantic dividends to the original investors who will gradually divest themselves of stock ownership as the market catches up with them as it is now doing with JB.

but, in one sense you're absolutely right: you won't need a union.

Kill Bill: "Oh won't someone please say that I am so very correct in my thinking. I'm ever so smart and important"

hey, i don't need validation, especially from JB guys. time will tell which of us was correct.

No need for validation. Nope just no need at all. None whatsoever. If you guys want to continue being wrong go right ahead. No big whoop. Nope. None. Not a need for validation, especially from guys who are wrong and won't admit it. Crazy if you ask me, but it's no skin off of my nose. Crazy, crazy, crazy. Oh well, you guys wanna be wrong, and be crazy, far be it from me to stop you. Doesn't affect me in the least. I have a great job. What you guys do, and how wrong you are, doesn't affect me at all. None. Zip. Me and my family will be just fine. I'm not the one who is wrong. I'll tell you who is wrong though, even though I don't care, its somebody that will remain nameless. Rhymes with "WetGlue violets" though. I don't care though. I've got a LOT more important things to do in my life than to continue posting and trying to convince you JetBlue pilots..I mean wetglue violets how you are wrong for not being scared.

uh, ok.

seek help.

"Seek help, Mr wrongy wrong-pants"

i guess the standards at JB are lower than even *I* thought.

BTW, this is my favorite quote from you.
Yours,

Dave (once thought I was right, but was convinced I am wrong)

Harder than stone
 

Kill,
Your trying (I think that's what your doing:rolleyes: ) to reason with people that can't/won't/don't know how to; hear what we say. You would have better luck reasoning with a rock.:eek:

They'll get someday.

dc... i hear you. that's why i quit; i got tired of explaining that water runs downhill without benefit of a government study.