The difference? The pay...
11-29-2005, 04:31 PM
#1
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Posts: n/a
The difference? Not the pay...
From JB:
"Q&A
What’s the difference between the E190 and a Regional Jet?
Good question. This is a very gray area even among aviation experts, partly because the definition of a regional jet is vague. The most commonly used regional jets are CRJs and ERJs with 50 to 85 seats. If you compare the E190 to other aircraft, it actually looks closer, in terms of seats, to the 737-500 and 737-600 operated by major carriers. The standard definition, which is nearly universal in the aviation community, is that the E190 is a mainline jet. But when it really comes down to it, the E190 is truly in a class of its own."
I saw a 190 taxi past a CRJ last week. No *******ing way that's an RJ.
"Q&A
What’s the difference between the E190 and a Regional Jet?
Good question. This is a very gray area even among aviation experts, partly because the definition of a regional jet is vague. The most commonly used regional jets are CRJs and ERJs with 50 to 85 seats. If you compare the E190 to other aircraft, it actually looks closer, in terms of seats, to the 737-500 and 737-600 operated by major carriers. The standard definition, which is nearly universal in the aviation community, is that the E190 is a mainline jet. But when it really comes down to it, the E190 is truly in a class of its own."
I saw a 190 taxi past a CRJ last week. No *******ing way that's an RJ.
Last edited by automatique; 11-29-2005 at 07:38 PM.
11-29-2005, 05:33 PM
#2
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Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: right here
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by automatique
I saw a 190 taxi past a CRJ last week. No *******ing way that's an RJ.
Even Wall Street understands the economics of JB's E190 pay scale. If you can find it, take a look at the full version of JP Morgan's investor analysis of the 190 pay scale from last year; a few paragraphs are reprinted below.
# # #
US Equity Research
J.P. Morgan Securities Inc.
July 8, 2004
JBLU 190s; Mainline Plane, Regional Pay
JetBlue has established highly attractive [for investors only] pilot rates for next year’s planned 100-seat aircraft. Resulting cockpit economics suggest a distinct competitive advantage for both JetBlue and manufacturer Embraer, and are initially a negative for operators of traditional RJs, in our opinion.
A positive for JetBlue – According to our analysis, E190 senior captain pay per seat will be just 10% above JetBlue’s existing A320s, despite 56 fewer seats. Notwithstanding its diminutive size, JetBlue’s 100-seat aircraft will offer better cockpit/seat economics than larger Frontier A319s, AirTran 717s, and Southwest 737s. Typically with smaller aircraft, the reverse is true.
A negative for the regional airline sector, initially – Alaska and Delta intend to pay certain regional pilots more per hour than JetBlue to fly smaller aircraft less efficiently, and with arguably inferior passenger ergonomics. At least for a while. Ultimately,JetBlue’s pilot rates may compel traditional regional operators to seek wage concessions. Yet another headache for regional shareholders though one worth enduring, in our opinion.
[edit chart]
JetBlue has established highly attractive pilot pay for its Embraer 190s, scheduled for delivery in the third quarter of next year. 3-year seniority rates are just $74 per hour, or $80 per hour when adjusted for overtime. (Above 70 hours per month, JetBlue pays time-and-a-half, with Airbus pilots averaging 83 hours). Whereas airline pilots typically get paid more as aircraft size increases, JetBlue has established its 100-seat pay scale below that of certain 70-seat operators, an obvious competitive disadvantage for the regional airline sector, at least initially.
On a per seat basis, we estimate that JetBlue’s E190 pilot economics will also be superior to the larger Boeing and Airbus equipment flown by its LCC peers, AirTran, Frontier and Southwest. In fact, at $0.96 per seat per 12-year captain hour, JetBlue’s 100-seat aircraft will offer a 33% advantage to Southwest’s larger, 137-seat aircraft (adjusted for this September’s planned 14% pay increase and next year’s 7%). JetBlue’s advantage in its earlier years should be even more pronounced, given that there’s no such thing as a 12- year captain at JetBlue, yet. Similarly, AMR would require a 757, nearly twice the size of the E190, to approach JetBlue’s cockpit/seat economics, based on planned 3Q05 AMR pay rates.
For the regional airline sector, the establishment of 100-seat rates generally consistent with prevailing 70-seat levels suggests a need for diminished RJ pay. In their current forms, Alaska and Delta intend to pay certain of their 70-seat captains more per hour than JetBlue, but to fly smaller planes less efficiently and with arguably inferior passenger ergonomics. At least for a while. While JetBlue’s 100-seat pay scale poses an obvious threat to prevailing 50 and 70-seat rates, the aircraft won’t arrive in JetBlue colours until the third quarter of next year...
Last edited by bluechunks; 11-29-2005 at 05:39 PM.
12-08-2005, 04:14 PM
#5
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,601
JB setting the mark
I guess further proof of JB setting the standard (with a smile) of the race to the bottom. When you under cut regionals, you really make (school) teaching look like a great option
01-02-2006, 10:22 AM
#8
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,601
Originally Posted by lightblue
You are what you earn the rj pay for the 190 is set. It will not change, since the operators of 170 pay's even less and we have to compete.
I could only find one operator of the 170 (which is smaller than the 190) and it paying slightly less than JB, $85 vs $77 capt 10yr; $51 vs $37 FO 10 yr.
Even if you discount the "fact" (which isn't one till it happens
) that you would not be a 10 year FO at JB, your still looking at less than $100 to fly a 737-100 replacement as captain."You are what you earn.....", set the bar low enough and, guess what?? someone will set it lower
".......we have to compete."
01-02-2006, 07:19 PM
#9
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 40
Jet Blue pays more than 70 seat regionals, it is only less on a PER SEAT basis. They are more efficient. Efficient airlines create more jobs, shorter reserve careers, faster upgrades and NO FURLOUGHS, all of which increase income and QOL. Plus, Jet Blue has profit sharing. Gotta have profits to have profit sharing. Did I mention that their stock is actually worth something? That helps the old W-2 as well. And what's wrong with averaging $100/hour? A six figure income not including the aforementioned extras. Maybe I'm just not greedy enough but it sounds like a great career to me.
"Race to the bottom" is such ALPA bull****. If $100,000k+/yr is the bottom I'm diving in.
"Race to the bottom" is such ALPA bull****. If $100,000k+/yr is the bottom I'm diving in.
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