The difference? Not the pay...
 

From JB:

"Q&A
What’s the difference between the E190 and a Regional Jet?
Good question. This is a very gray area even among aviation experts, partly because the definition of a regional jet is vague. The most commonly used regional jets are CRJs and ERJs with 50 to 85 seats. If you compare the E190 to other aircraft, it actually looks closer, in terms of seats, to the 737-500 and 737-600 operated by major carriers. The standard definition, which is nearly universal in the aviation community, is that the E190 is a mainline jet. But when it really comes down to it, the E190 is truly in a class of its own."

I saw a 190 taxi past a CRJ last week. No *******ing way that's an RJ.

Bingo.

Even Wall Street understands the economics of JB's E190 pay scale. If you can find it, take a look at the full version of JP Morgan's investor analysis of the 190 pay scale from last year; a few paragraphs are reprinted below.

# # #

US Equity Research
J.P. Morgan Securities Inc.
July 8, 2004

JBLU 190s; Mainline Plane, Regional Pay

JetBlue has established highly attractive [for investors only] pilot rates for next year’s planned 100-seat aircraft. Resulting cockpit economics suggest a distinct competitive advantage for both JetBlue and manufacturer Embraer, and are initially a negative for operators of traditional RJs, in our opinion.

A positive for JetBlue – According to our analysis, E190 senior captain pay per seat will be just 10% above JetBlue’s existing A320s, despite 56 fewer seats. Notwithstanding its diminutive size, JetBlue’s 100-seat aircraft will offer better cockpit/seat economics than larger Frontier A319s, AirTran 717s, and Southwest 737s. Typically with smaller aircraft, the reverse is true.

A negative for the regional airline sector, initially – Alaska and Delta intend to pay certain regional pilots more per hour than JetBlue to fly smaller aircraft less efficiently, and with arguably inferior passenger ergonomics. At least for a while. Ultimately,JetBlue’s pilot rates may compel traditional regional operators to seek wage concessions. Yet another headache for regional shareholders though one worth enduring, in our opinion.

[edit chart]

JetBlue has established highly attractive pilot pay for its Embraer 190s, scheduled for delivery in the third quarter of next year. 3-year seniority rates are just $74 per hour, or $80 per hour when adjusted for overtime. (Above 70 hours per month, JetBlue pays time-and-a-half, with Airbus pilots averaging 83 hours). Whereas airline pilots typically get paid more as aircraft size increases, JetBlue has established its 100-seat pay scale below that of certain 70-seat operators, an obvious competitive disadvantage for the regional airline sector, at least initially.

On a per seat basis, we estimate that JetBlue’s E190 pilot economics will also be superior to the larger Boeing and Airbus equipment flown by its LCC peers, AirTran, Frontier and Southwest. In fact, at $0.96 per seat per 12-year captain hour, JetBlue’s 100-seat aircraft will offer a 33% advantage to Southwest’s larger, 137-seat aircraft (adjusted for this September’s planned 14% pay increase and next year’s 7%). JetBlue’s advantage in its earlier years should be even more pronounced, given that there’s no such thing as a 12- year captain at JetBlue, yet. Similarly, AMR would require a 757, nearly twice the size of the E190, to approach JetBlue’s cockpit/seat economics, based on planned 3Q05 AMR pay rates.

For the regional airline sector, the establishment of 100-seat rates generally consistent with prevailing 70-seat levels suggests a need for diminished RJ pay. In their current forms, Alaska and Delta intend to pay certain of their 70-seat captains more per hour than JetBlue, but to fly smaller planes less efficiently and with arguably inferior passenger ergonomics. At least for a while. While JetBlue’s 100-seat pay scale poses an obvious threat to prevailing 50 and 70-seat rates, the aircraft won’t arrive in JetBlue colours until the third quarter of next year...

Good info...Thanks...I'd like to read the rest of the information where can I find / get it?


Sincerely,
LA

JB has set the mark - once NWA works out it's Newco plan I think the writing is on the wall for pilot pay.

Tim.

JB setting the mark
 

I guess further proof of JB setting the standard (with a smile) of the race to the bottom. When you under cut regionals, you really make (school) teaching look like a great option:D

...............

rj pay = rj
 

You are what you earn the rj pay for the 190 is set. It will not change, since the operators of 170 pay's even less and we have to compete.

You gotta be a JB koolaider or a new-hire;)
I could only find one operator of the 170 (which is smaller than the 190) and it paying slightly less than JB, $85 vs $77 capt 10yr; $51 vs $37 FO 10 yr.
Even if you discount the "fact" (which isn't one till it happens:D ) that you would not be a 10 year FO at JB, your still looking at less than $100 to fly a 737-100 replacement as captain.
"You are what you earn.....", set the bar low enough and, guess what?? someone will set it lower:mad: ".......we have to compete."

Jet Blue pays more than 70 seat regionals, it is only less on a PER SEAT basis. They are more efficient. Efficient airlines create more jobs, shorter reserve careers, faster upgrades and NO FURLOUGHS, all of which increase income and QOL. Plus, Jet Blue has profit sharing. Gotta have profits to have profit sharing. Did I mention that their stock is actually worth something? That helps the old W-2 as well. And what's wrong with averaging $100/hour? A six figure income not including the aforementioned extras. Maybe I'm just not greedy enough but it sounds like a great career to me.

"Race to the bottom" is such ALPA bull****. If $100,000k+/yr is the bottom I'm diving in.

Where is this bar I keep hearing about anyway? Basement of ALPA headquarters? Do they pour a decent mojito?

And the chest beating about how much he made at FedEx in 3...2...1...

I'm curious about your profit sharing, is it related to the stock you get?? How does that work??
............And what's wrong with averaging $100/hour?..............
Nothing, how about $50 an hour?? why noy $25?? If you work enough hours $25 is a great deal:rolleyes: Lets see, every hour over 70 at $37.50, wow you could be making real money.
The point is, pilots did make more, consideribly more before, and now they don't. Trust me, if you think what you make is good, than someone will test the water's to see at what point you still..........."dive in" :p

Just remember your not making $100,000 + because of your great looks, landing ability or modest ego's ;) Your making it because an ALPA pilot was willing (and paid to) to help set the standard you guys are helping to undermine.

I'll leave it to you guy's to boast to your buddies how much you make. I'v seen the boasting on this forum. I'm waiting for the Fo's to boast about making, "over fifty dollars an hour!!! :D

Opps!! What is that ‘flushing’ sound? Someone didn’t tell the ‘Analysts’ on Wall Street (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=JBLU) that you guys are depending on this as part of your low rent airline ‘package’. NOW the stock is whirling around in the toilet vortex . . . just like industry wages, which you have significantly helped to drag down.

Yeah. . a damn NYC bus driver makes that too! You people are pitiful, in HOW ‘needy’ you are. I know flying is fun, but the investment one makes to get into an airline seat is CERTAINLY worth more than a damn transit worker‘s take home! Have you no pride?!
Look before you leap. The pool is almost empty!

Where is your self-righteous indignation at the pay rates of Kalitta pilots? Or Polar? Atlas?

After all the economic and tragic circumstances that have beset this industry, you somehow come to the conclusion that one airline is the root of all of it's problems. Brilliant.

And by the way, I've seen plenty of bragging from a FEW UPS and FedEx pilots and their newfound industry-leading pay status. I wouldnt brag too much, there's a whole slew of MBA's in MEM working on the "greedy FedEx pilot" problem as well.

I do not mean to come across as a wet towel, but it might be a good time to look at the "big picture" in terms of this issue, and not just focus merely upon pay.

You see the thing about the E-170, and now E-190 pay rates being so low is that there has been a tradeoff made by the pilot groups accepting these pay scales (US Airways and jetBlue) to enable them to remain competitive.

I am not just talking about competitive just in terms of other airlines, but competitive in terms of maintaining this flying in house, and flown by your own pilots.

Some might bash jetBlue's E-190 rates, but in my opinion it is a far better thing for both jetBlue, and it's pilots that this growth remained at jetBlue (and not a jetBlue Express or jetBlue connection). Keeping the E-190's on the property means that jetBlue retains control over the product, retains all of the revenue produced, and increases shareholder value. It is obvious what opportunities E-190 growth offers to the jetBlue pilots...

Compare that with the possibility of all that E-190 flying having been farmed out instead.

IMO it is a better thing to have lower pay (and maintain that flying), rather than no pay (because someone else is flying the aircraft for you).

............

You should be flattered I pick on you and not the Kalitta pilots. YOU and YOUR bud's are the ones (IMHO) that are (currently) driving the pay and benefits to there current levels. You should be flattered that YOU are have such a negitive effect on all pilot pay and QOL issues, your own included. :mad:
If I were you I'd point to pride how I am party to bring pilot compensation down to the level it is. Your help in lowering seat costs on the E-190 will truly be a big help in making this profession one that my kids (hopefully not) will look forward to. Brilliant:p

Your point is well taking. I think pilot groups (in the past) have hosed themselves by not keeping the flying in house. When commuters were flying receip prop planes with 10 seats or less, no self respecting airline pilot would expect (respect??) a pilot on his seniorty list flying a GA airplane. Now the prop is an jet with 100+ seats flown by the same "contract" pilots that one cares flew a Navaho. Well we have all come sow what we reap.

Still your pay on the E-190 sucks!!!:D

I don't see how JB pilots are setting the low standard in pay / QOL for the rest of the industry.

Doesn't ALPA and their dues paying members set the pay / QOL at ALPA represented airlines?


Trying to learn about the industry,
LA

Yo Weekend Warrior (which I presume, you have off),
When a runny noise VFR pilot has been out of school long enough to see whats happening in the airline industry, you might have a greater appreciation for who and whats driving wages and benefits in this industry.:p

sadly, alpa doesn't do anything anymore except collect our dues.

and regarding JB, how can JB be considered a "career" with 5-year contracts?

i'm reminded of a quote from l. ron hubbard, the founder of scientology. to paraphrase, "if you want to make REAL money, start your own religion." in a nutshell, this is what JB has done. they are cute, they are quirky, they have leather seats, they have direct tv, they have cute blue pilot shirts, they are fighting the good fight against high-priced airline tickets. they have convinced the workforce that JB is not just an airline, it's a religion. too bad the only guy making money on this deal is neeleman and his monkeys. JB's day is coming. the stock was downgraded big-time yesterday. i give JB 3 years, tops.

Where are you, Jet Blue???
 

Keep waiting for more JB guy's to jump on our Sh** but they arn't home. Guess to busy flying on their days off!:eek:

Well, quite frankly it's more that you're sounding like a broken record.

Plus I can't figure out what it is you're trying to accomplish here --

Convince JB folks who enjoy their job that we're deluded, are actually miserable, and wouldn't be happier unless we had more money? (so that you could have more money...)

Convince us that we should be miserable, if we aren't, because more money is the only thing that's important?

Convince us to start an uprising?

Do you see how silly that sounds?

P.S. The "5 year contract" thing AGAIN?? For anyone who ever wondered why JB folks bristle at questions over the contract, there's your reason.

Yo Weekend Warrior (which I presume, you have off),
When a runny noise VFR pilot has been out of school long enough to see whats happening in the airline industry, you might have a greater appreciation for who and whats driving wages and benefits in this industry.


The part about the runny noise (nose) cut too close to the bone...

-LA

hey sit-back:

what do you guys do when your contract runs out? do you get another 5 years at the same pay? a small raise? stock options? what happens if you **** some guy off and your contract isn't renewed? start over again in the right seat at some other ****-bag airline? i mean, really, i'm very curious about the long-term strategy here and what, if any, long-term planning you guys do. i'd also like to know how you compare JB to other airlines who, sort of, offer a career to their employees. and what do mortgage lenders do when you tell them you have a 5-year contract? also, let's say you buy a house with a 30-year mortgage based on your left-seat income and then your contract isn't renewed. looks like you lose your home to me. maybe i'm wrong.

i guess what i'm asking is why JB is so great for anyone but the original investors?

The 5-yr contract has been beaten to death. Do a search.

A couple of notes:

Nobody has ever not been renewed. Everyone who's left JetBlue did so voluntarily or been fired for cause. If that changes then we'll talk.

The pay scale extends beyond 5 years. That information is on this very site if you'd bother to look.

Anyone who takes out a 30-yr mortgage based on their left seat pay in this industry is an idiot.

Next?

wow. so sure of yourself and a veteran of, what? 3 or 4 years with jesus h. blue?

i bet that 5-year thing hanging over your head like the sword of damocles has no effect, right?

what is your mortgage based upon? 1st year FO pay?

how is your union organizing effort going over there?

:confused:

I'd respond to this in detail if it contained any semblance of coherent thought.

OK, my apologies if this was a sincere question. It looked suspiciously like flame bait.

It has been beaten to death and any question you want answered and then some can be found on this board, as well as others. Some day when I have a little time, if you're really interested, I can search for some links and direct you to them. The short answer, though, is that isn't a Sword of Damocles. It renews automatically. There's no reapplying, no review of performance, no starting over, it just renews. If our management suddenly decides to start letting people go at 5 years just because they can, then I promise you, I'll completely reverse myself on this whole thing and curse my ignorance for not seeing it coming. And I'm certain we'd have a union on the property immediately. But ask yourself what they would have to gain by doing that?


The same thing they do with anyone else, I guess. They give me a loan. And that above scenario -- sounds about like being furloughed. But at least furloughed guys had a contract, right?

Look, plan however you want. But from where I sit I think you're crazy if you put all your eggs in the "my left seat salary for life" basket. We're all reasonably intelligent adults who have chosen to work in a volatile industry in a capitalist society. We all have access to all the pertinent information. It's our own fault if we get surprised.

OK, I'll answer this once more, but you'll need to press the "I believe" button for a sec because apparently you absolutely cannot fathom that an airline could be a great place to work, where there's an atmosphere of mutual trust, respect, and teamwork, and people tend to enjoy being there. It's not a religion, it's a well run business and it's a pleasure to be a part of. It would be nice to make a little more money, and it would be nice to get a yearly cost-of-living raise. If things get better in the industry and we still aren't getting these things then I may change my tune. But right now I have absolutely no reason not to love my job.

Well, after reading all this stuff on the message board about B6, I'm now convinced that I shouldn't have come to work here. I now agree that this is a crappy company and that we all have become brainwashed into thinking this was a good job, even though most of us were ALPA or some other "union". We instantly forgot about what "TRUE BROTHERHOOD" is as soon as we were furloughed. I should have taken the job as a new hire at Eagle, or Trans States, or ASA, or Indy Air. That way I wouldn't be single handedly bringing down the industry. When furloughed, I should have had the foresight to just go get hired at FedEx or UPS, it's just that easy and simple. Or maybe I should have done something respectable, like take a job flying checks at night in a baron, or gone overseas to try to find work, or just laid down and died after my furlough. I'd be dead but at least I wouldn't offend KillBill by just working.
From now on, I vow to PIZZ and moan at work, and especially on these message boards where the real special men of aviation are. I promise to do my job half azzed. That is until we go belly up. Someone said we will be gone within three years. Even told me to "mark it down". (Note to self, I will be unemployed within three year, AGAIN, got it). Maybe by that time, there will be an official list out there that will be mailed to me after my furlough that says:
"Dear Stewart, we are sorry to hear that you are once again without employment and unable to support your wife and three kids. Please take note of the following jobs that will be acceptable for you to take to support them that will not affect me or my family.
1. UPS
2. FedEx
3. SWA
4. Guy who leads the ponies at the county fair.
5. Guy who adjusts the regulators on the O2 for SCUBA divers.
6. Guy who says "LET'S GET READY TO RUMMMMBBBLLLLEE!" at boxing matches
7. Some lame -azzed ,fecal for gray matter guy that constantly whines on a message board for pilots about how others are bringing down the profession.
(Although this is a non-paying job)

Once again, sorry to hear about your impending unemployment.

Sincerely,

Us guys that didn't get furloughed."

Now I will go slam my thumbs in my car door for an hour to remind myself what an idiot I have become.
Thanks to all of you for making me "see the light"

Not that is funny! Well said bro.

i guess the point i'm trying to make is that, whether you like it or not, the 5-year contract IS a sword hanging over your necks. it may "renew" all by itself today, but what's the point of having a 5 year deal if it's not to have the ability to pull the plug on you guys and not leave you any way to fight it? are you guys REALLY comfortable making less AND having to be good boys so your "career" can be "renewed" 5 years at a time?

that was my point about JB being a religion; you guys think what you're getting is good; it's not AND it has helped lower the bar for the rest of us.

what if JB only offered 1-year contracts? would that still be a good thing as long as it "renewed" every year?

what if JB only offered 1-year contracts? would that still be a good thing as long as it "renewed" every year?



KB,

IMHO, Yes. JB would have no problem finding applicants...I remember from my student pilot days...The appeal to be an airline pilot is very strong...I felt it many times...Airline pilot is one of the most prestegious jobs in the world.


However strong the appeal, I'm happy being a military officer.

-LA

Lower the bar? What did you call it when CAL pilots bent over for the 900th time without a fight?

there is a gigantic difference between having "no problem finding applicants" and being a good thing. JB pilots are disposable and they not only don't find that objectionable, they seem to think it's a good thing.

and if i've never thanked you for your service to america, please accept it now.

lowering the bar. not that it matters now but i haven't yet voted FOR any contract i've worked under at CO. this is an industry-wide fight we're in and i haven't singled-out JB. you guys are just a little more egregious than most of the rest.

So I guess I'm justified in calling out your company as well? And when that idiotic prick from Alaska gets his way and has asian pilots hauling cargo in this country, we can call out the UPS and FedEx pilots for finally destroying what little we had?

There are many problems in this country. A company who delivers a product its customers want is not one of them.

What aim I trying to accomplish??:rolleyes:

Well partly to bust your ba**s :D

Mainly to get you to think, defend, debate your position, effect, and future in the greater cause of airline flying.
If you guy's weren't so cocky about, what?? Setting the standard for airlines and their flight crews to emulate?? Not!
At least the SWA pilots, god bless them, are improving thier lot, maybe not in the way some (in the cockpit or riding in the back) would like, but, for better or worse, they are partners to their future not just being told what it is.
You've been in business long enough that you and your colleiges should be taking greater control of your destiny. Before you jump on the "ALPA Hate wagan", go another direction, just, do something!!
You don't see Airtain catching sh** and thier package also sucks, but at least they are players in deciding their destiny.:)

Have a good day

BTW if you write cockpit with a hyphen big, (forum) brother does this ****-pit

Hey at least you still have your sense of humor:cool: