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SWA headed for Chap. 11
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/48/17/
Well, I guess using B6 logic the new increased SWA pilot rates will send them into Chap. 11. So I wonder what their 190 rates would look like on a per seat basis. Oh, good thing they decided to hedge fuel....what a lucky move. |
That web page is ancient history.
You need to get right headed and start thinking about a more reasonable future. Pilots have always had unrealistic expectations and it's high time we all just accepted the new world order. Airplanes are fun! Flight attendants are fun! Uniforms are cool! It's feels great to be young and type rated! You'll be much happier if you just stop talking about the past. |
Originally Posted by bluebird
That web page is ancient history.
Hard to believe that some airlines are actually following through on their contractural pay raises instead of asking for concessions, huh? Probably won't last forever but we'll take what we get while the gettin's good and be ready to talk when the contract's over next year. |
corl.... ur weaksauce.... show me the money~!
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Originally Posted by 2 BLUE
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/48/17/
Well, I guess using B6 logic the new increased SWA pilot rates will send them into Chap. 11. So I wonder what their 190 rates would look like on a per seat basis. Oh, good thing they decided to hedge fuel....what a lucky move. Lucky? Gary Kelley is a brilliant leader. A pilot asked Gary if the pilot group should vote on forgoing our Sep 1 contractual raise. His relpy was that he had no intention to ask for concessions and that he felt we earned our raise. I'm just happy to be on the greener side of the fence. :D |
sarcasm?
You know I don't agree with 2 Blue, but I did read his post as being sarcasm which seems to have been missed by other poster.
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Mine was 100% sarcasm. SWA pay rates are real enough.
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What's not to agree about?
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Originally Posted by 2 BLUE
What's not to agree about?
I guess it's not really fair to say that I don't agree since I really don't know your opinion. I just got the vibe you were pushing for a pay increase and even though I would love one I don't think right now is the time to take it. Attending the pocket session yesterday I get the impression we will be hard pressed to even turn a profit next quarter. If we do and its sizeable well then just call me a sucker but I just don't see it. We are on the right track with recent fare increases but we have a way to go to be able to afford any pay raises. I"m happy to keep what I have until I see a couple of very profitable quarters and things going in the right direction. Then give me the raise. |
Originally Posted by banger
I guess it's not really fair to say that I don't agree since I really don't know your opinion. I just got the vibe you were pushing for a pay increase and even though I would love one I don't think right now is the time to take it. Attending the pocket session yesterday I get the impression we will be hard pressed to even turn a profit next quarter. If we do and its sizeable well then just call me a sucker but I just don't see it. We are on the right track with recent fare increases but we have a way to go to be able to afford any pay raises. I"m happy to keep what I have until I see a couple of very profitable quarters and things going in the right direction. Then give me the raise. Don't count on it. Remember, we had 4 quarters in 2002, no pay raise (over 16% profit margin), 4 quarters in 2003 and no pay raise (over 17% profit margin), 4 quarters in 2004 with no pay raise (over 10% profit margin). 2002 and 2003 were record setting years and no raise or cost of living adjustment. Remember you are not keeping what you have. You are losing 2-4% per year based on inflation. (lost almost 10% of our buying power since the fall of 2001 due to inflation). Why can't they increase the ticket prices just one !@#$%^& US dollar and give us all a 2.5%pay raise for inflation. We can raise the ticket price for fuel, but not for employee expenses. Well, its all about the company. Long live the company. Let the employees be damned. Just my opinion..... FNG |
What difference does it make if we make a profit? What size profit? What is it going to take ...50% profit margin for 50 years? If you don't make the company budget for your salary then they will always spend it on something else - they have to! You are giving away your pay to fuel the 190 CASM increase.
Are you seriously still listening to the dumbing down of a pocket session? Mind numbing. |
Originally Posted by 2 BLUE
What difference does it make if we make a profit? What size profit? What is it going to take ...50% profit margin for 50 years? If you don't make the company budget for your salary then they will always spend it on something else - they have to! You are giving away your pay to fuel the 190 CASM increase.
Are you seriously still listening to the dumbing down of a pocket session? Mind numbing. You are right on target! Management will never give us a pay raise on their own. Their "evaluation" of compensation will always fall short until they are forced to do so. If the company can forcast the increasing MX cost for the next ten years, they can also forecast a 3% pay raise per year for all of the employees. Financial advisors always say, pay yourself first! Well, if the go ahead and budget for the pay raise, it has a better chance of happening vs waiting for them to deem it time. Again, blue, right on! The pocket sessions have become nothing but pep rallies. No real information is pass on any more. It is lots of fluf, followed by doom and gloom to keep us from demanding due compensation. Remember, it is bad for the pilots, but it is even worse for the FA, customer service, rampers, etc. That is who they are really talking to anymore. Something to remember, JB, Airtran and SWA control the price in the market. If we raise prices, everyone will raise prices. You can bet that the other major airlines will not undercut our prices. They will be glad to match our increased prices. But these increased prices will allow us to make a lot more profit, while letting the other majors continue to loose money (while not quite as much). This will allow JB to fairly compensate us and plan for the pay raises. The idea of keeping market share and matching fairs has driven all of the majors into bankruptcy. We need to be leaders and set the flow and prices in the industy, and not followers of the "market share" gods. IF mangement is using our cost to drive the majors down at the expense of employee pay, then they have no values and don't care about us. Just my opinion.... FNG |
The main purpose of a pocket session is to make you think that there is a linear correlation between your salary and Chap 11. Many buy into this and it works.
Also, pocket sessions are a great place to ask the COO if you can put your jacket on when it is cold. |
Originally Posted by FNG320
Blue
Something to remember, JB, Airtran and SWA control the price in the market. If we raise prices, everyone will raise prices. You can bet that the other major airlines will not undercut our prices. They will be glad to match our increased prices. But these increased prices will allow us to make a lot more profit, while letting the other majors continue to loose money (while not quite as much). This will allow JB to fairly compensate us and plan for the pay raises. The idea of keeping market share and matching fairs has driven all of the majors into bankruptcy. We need to be leaders and set the flow and prices in the industy, and not followers of the "market share" gods. IF mangement is using our cost to drive the majors down at the expense of employee pay, then they have no values and don't care about us. Just my opinion.... FNG Do you remember our seige of LGB and other markets (to include ATL)? Yea, the others just sat there and left their ticket prices where they were :confused: Get a grip Man, we don't control squat. You think the market is controlled, just wait until DL and NW are running under backruptcy, then we'll be in a real bind. Do I want more money, hell yes, but if it is gonna put us in a jam then I guess it just ain't worth the extra few bucks an hour, now is it? But then........ just MY opinion...... P.S. The Pocket Sessions have ALWAYS been a joke from the pilots perspective but a real RA RA get 'em get 'em for the rest of the troops. C yaaa |
Well if the Ra Ra sessions are for "the rest" of the troops then stop holding them in the pilot lounge.
Ooooh ATL...what a sincere attempt to add service. 2 redeyes. What a complete joke. Again, the repeated notion that our salary will drive the company into the dirt. .....our salary will drive the company into the dirt. .....our salary will drive the company into the dirt. .....our salary will drive the company into the dirt. Say it one more time.....magically it becomes true. It must be true. Polly want a cracker? |
http://www.apapdp.org/cms/staticfile...comparison.pdf
Scroll down to the top of page 14. Total pilot costs per ASM. JetBlue enjoys the lowest pilot CASM in the industry...by far. |
Originally Posted by Baba Bluey
http://www.apapdp.org/cms/staticfile...comparison.pdf
Scroll down to the top of page 14. Total pilot costs per ASM. JetBlue enjoys the lowest pilot CASM in the industry...by far. |
Originally Posted by Baba Bluey
http://www.apapdp.org/cms/staticfile...comparison.pdf
Scroll down to the top of page 14. Total pilot costs per ASM. JetBlue enjoys the lowest pilot CASM in the industry...by far. So, if we double our pay (pilot CASM) JetBlue's CASM moves from 6 cents to 6.5 cents! Oh but wait, when we get the E-190 this will drive our CASM up the same amount. So, there you have it. Without proper pilot compensation we are paying for the E-190 spread. So, why are we getting the E-190 again? |
Pay
First of all, I think "Baba Bluey" is one of the funniest names I have heard...should be a name for one of our airplanes.
OK, sorry, but I think it is a little early to complain about pay. I have been working here for less than three years, and have made far more money than I could have at any other airline. For those that have been here longer, they have done even better. Pay rates don't tell the whole story, upgrade time is also a consideration. Data on CASM is great...good to keep in the hip pocket for the future, but even a .5 cent increase in CASM is significant at our slim profit margins (not operating margins...no one cares about that). For more junior pilots, yes, they have a different story, since upgrade times are longer and E190 pay is less than stellar. But then, they know the situation when they sign up also. For anyone with my seniority or higher, there is not one airline they could have done better at here in the states. As upgrade times increase, I think more pressure will build to increase pay. With similar upgrade times, why come here instead of SWA? I think management will have to increase pay eventually, as long as we stay profitable. Yes, profit does matter. In case you haven't noticed, that is the main idea in our system of private enterprise. Earnings per share is the measurement that drives up stock price. Higher profits (and cash flow) are better for all of us, leading to options worth something, more profit sharing, and higher pay. Without it, fogettaboutit. Fuel prices. We don't control that, so it is easier to raise prices as a result of fuel cost increases. Raising prices to justify a pay raise is harder to sell. Bottom line...anyone here with any seniority has done way better than they could have anywhere else, so how can you complain about pay? (FNG: that is not to say I totally disagree with your COL argument...but I would rather have a significant pay raise later than a couple of percent now). OK, blast me, I can take it. |
Originally Posted by Meworry?
I think management will have to increase pay eventually, as long as we stay profitable.
Many pilots are NOT motivated by stock price and profit sharing. If you are motivated by dangling carrots then you accelerate the race to the bottom. With no pension and eroding benefits you become a contract worker. If you don't even command a contract wage then we become a valueless group. Private enterprise is about making a profit......when you are a salary worker that merely translates into an hourly wage. Pilot CASM is .5 cents. It doesn't get anymore basic than that. I want JETBLUE to be as great as you do but I see that there is room for a .6 pilot CASM now. I guess one solution would be to have a split contract. Guys could choose to have lower pay and keep their options,CSPP and profit sharing or one could choose to eliminate options, CSPP and profit sharing for a higher contract salary. This way both sides of the fence would get what they want but would have to give up one or the other. (This is not a blast) |
Originally Posted by Meworry?
First of all, I think "Baba Bluey" is one of the funniest names I have heard...should be a name for one of our airplanes.
OK, sorry, but I think it is a little early to complain about pay. I have been working here for less than three years, and have made far more money than I could have at any other airline. For those that have been here longer, they have done even better. Pay rates don't tell the whole story, upgrade time is also a consideration. Data on CASM is great...good to keep in the hip pocket for the future, but even a .5 cent increase in CASM is significant at our slim profit margins (not operating margins...no one cares about that). For more junior pilots, yes, they have a different story, since upgrade times are longer and E190 pay is less than stellar. But then, they know the situation when they sign up also. For anyone with my seniority or higher, there is not one airline they could have done better at here in the states. As upgrade times increase, I think more pressure will build to increase pay. With similar upgrade times, why come here instead of SWA? I think management will have to increase pay eventually, as long as we stay profitable. Yes, profit does matter. In case you haven't noticed, that is the main idea in our system of private enterprise. Earnings per share is the measurement that drives up stock price. Higher profits (and cash flow) are better for all of us, leading to options worth something, more profit sharing, and higher pay. Without it, fogettaboutit. Fuel prices. We don't control that, so it is easier to raise prices as a result of fuel cost increases. Raising prices to justify a pay raise is harder to sell. Bottom line...anyone here with any seniority has done way better than they could have anywhere else, so how can you complain about pay? (FNG: that is not to say I totally disagree with your COL argument...but I would rather have a significant pay raise later than a couple of percent now). OK, blast me, I can take it. I disagree with you on a whole bunch of points. First, it is never too early to work for a pay increase. In this industry it normally takes YEARS to negotiate a new contract between labor and management. Well, we don't have a union to represent us, and we are at the mercy of manage to "give" us a pay raise when "THEY" deem it time. If we don't make our desire known now, it will never happen. Remember even when we had the profit margins 2002/2003/2004 to give a pay raies they didn't do it. Yes, you may be making more than you did someplace else, but the pay that a new FO gets is 10% less than the FO that was hired in the fall of 2001. (it is called inflation!). Not to mention the crappy medical plan we now have that cost us hundreds of $$$ more per month/year than last year (and for crappier service), and that great E190 pay scale for new FOs! (Oh I guess 10% of nothing is still nothing.....) Why not raise prices to pay for a pay raise? Employees/Labor, just like maintenace and fuel is a cost of doing business. Just because they can still get us to work for less does not mean they should or that is fair or right. Management can predict/forcast our increasing mx cost due to fleet growth, as well as to aging aircraft. They can also predict an annual cost of living raise every year. IF they plan on it, they will make it work. We should not be the buffer to allow JB to keep low prices so JB can keep market share, where JB could have raised prices and kept 95-100% of our passengers anyway, because everyone would have matched us or riased their fairs the same amount, and we still would be the lowest cost/best service available. Every other major airline is using this method to drive their labor cost down. We do not need to follow the "Market Share" model that is killing the majors. Ask anyone who owns a business (your local hardware, office supply, diner, and you see them say that "IF you are not charging enough for your product to make a profit, you have to raise your prices to do so." That is business 101. Why sould we be the spring in this equation? Why should we let JB follow this proven path to failure? As for a raise later vs now, remember, compounding. The 10% we have already lost, we will never make that pay up. That is 10-20K you will never see. Houw much could that have been in your 401K for 20/30/40 years? I don't think any one of us is asking for an unreasonable pay raise. Just cost of living. But the longer it doesn't happen, the closer we get to a UNION, and the closer we get to asking/demanding that really big 10-30% pay raise to makeup for what we have lost. FRAM say pay me now, or pay me later. Remember, pay me later always cost more in the long run. I don't plan on my options being worth a dime. Remember 80% of the options in the pilot corps (my guess based on discussion with other pilots) are worth $0. Only those guys who are pre-IPO have any value to their options. I realize that if we do well and survive this mess, we will be in an even stronger postion. But if they are not going to pay me, then compensate me in other ways. How about some Incentive restricted stock (not options, but real stock). Hey, if the SEC is going to make JB expense them anyway, about something I can get my hands on and are really worth something. How about fixing crew services, minimum trip/duty rig, etc. I know they all cost $$$$, but some don't dost as much as others. Enough for now. Just my 1.2 cents (inflation has reduced the value of my 2 cents) Just my opinion..... FNG |
Originally Posted by FNG320
I disagree with you on a whole bunch of points.
Fair enough. First, it is never too early to work for a pay increase. In this industry it normally takes YEARS to negotiate a new contract between labor and management. Well, we don't have a union to represent us, and we are at the mercy of manage to "give" us a pay raise when "THEY" deem it time. If we don't make our desire known now, it will never happen. Remember even when we had the profit margins 2002/2003/2004 to give a pay raies they didn't do it. Maybe they were smart enough to look ahead, which is what other airline brass failed to do 6-7 years ago. And they definitely know we want better pay. Our margins declined every year, and we just barely made a profit in 2004...net margins are what count most. Yes, you may be making more than you did someplace else, but the pay that a new FO gets is 10% less than the FO that was hired in the fall of 2001. (it is called inflation!). Not to mention the crappy medical plan we now have that cost us hundreds of $$$ more per month/year than last year (and for crappier service), and that great E190 pay scale for new FOs! (Oh I guess 10% of nothing is still nothing.....) The market is what it is. And if you can solve the healthcare cost problems in this country, my hat's off to you. We'll pay for medical care one way or another. Why not raise prices to pay for a pay raise? Employees/Labor, just like maintenace and fuel is a cost of doing business. Just because they can still get us to work for less does not mean they should or that is fair or right. Management can predict/forcast our increasing mx cost due to fleet growth, as well as to aging aircraft. They can also predict an annual cost of living raise every year. IF they plan on it, they will make it work. We should not be the buffer to allow JB to keep low prices so JB can keep market share, where JB could have raised prices and kept 95-100% of our passengers anyway, because everyone would have matched us or riased their fairs the same amount, and we still would be the lowest cost/best service available. Every other major airline is using this method to drive their labor cost down. We do not need to follow the "Market Share" model that is killing the majors. Ask anyone who owns a business (your local hardware, office supply, diner, and you see them say that "IF you are not charging enough for your product to make a profit, you have to raise your prices to do so." That is business 101. If only it was that easy. Why sould we be the spring in this equation? Why should we let JB follow this proven path to failure? I just think there is a bigger picture (business 201). Market share and growth are part and parcel of a publicly traded company. They key is to grow sustainably without sacrificing profitability, but you sometimes have to give up margins to do so. My father ran a small business for decades, and you can't just raise prices to make a profit. I am not convinced we have the pricing power you suggest. If the other airlines would follow us so quickly, why are they waiting for us? They could raise prices now. We are full, their load factors are high. We could not possibly absorb many more customers, because we are not big enough. As I stated elsewhere, we are in a game of musical chairs that we have to win. The name of the game is staying liquid and remaining in business until things shake out, while still trying to grow to be able to take advantage when someone else fails. As for a raise later vs now, remember, compounding. The 10% we have already lost, we will never make that pay up. That is 10-20K you will never see. Houw much could that have been in your 401K for 20/30/40 years? I don't think any one of us is asking for an unreasonable pay raise. Just cost of living. But the longer it doesn't happen, the closer we get to a UNION, and the closer we get to asking/demanding that really big 10-30% pay raise to makeup for what we have lost. FRAM say pay me now, or pay me later. Remember, pay me later always cost more in the long run. Your math is right, just does not fit into big picture (my opinion). I don't plan on my options being worth a dime. Remember 80% of the options in the pilot corps (my guess based on discussion with other pilots) are worth $0. Only those guys who are pre-IPO have any value to their options. It's not what they are worth now, it's what they are worth seven years from now, or longer. I'm not planning on them either, but I would like them to be worth something, and we need a successful company for that. I realize that if we do well and survive this mess, we will be in an even stronger postion. But if they are not going to pay me, then compensate me in other ways. How about some Incentive restricted stock (not options, but real stock). Hey, if the SEC is going to make JB expense them anyway, about something I can get my hands on and are really worth something. How about fixing crew services, minimum trip/duty rig, etc. I know they all cost $$$$, but some don't dost as much as others. No arguments here. Enough for now. Just my 1.2 cents (inflation has reduced the value of my 2 cents) Just my opinion..... FNG MW? |
Originally Posted by FNG320
We should not be the buffer to allow JB to keep low prices so JB can keep market share, where JB could have raised prices and kept 95-100% of our passengers anyway, because everyone would have matched us or riased their fairs the same amount, and we still would be the lowest cost/best service available.
FNG I don't believe this is true. Delta (via SONG) is doing just the opposite. Charging below market rates on routes in direct competition with us. In fact they are pulling Song planes off profitable routes and putting them on routes that lose money just to compete with us. This will eventually BK Song but until that happens we have very little pricing power there. |
We should fly the profitable routes that Delta is giving up. Sounds like a great chance to increase RASM. If Delta is making money off of these routes we should make a killing!
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Originally Posted by Meworry?
First of all, I think "Baba Bluey" is one of the funniest names I have heard...should be a name for one of our airplanes.
OK, sorry, but I think it is a little early to complain about pay. I have been working here for less than three years, and have made far more money than I could have at any other airline. For those that have been here longer, they have done even better. Pay rates don't tell the whole story, upgrade time is also a consideration. Data on CASM is great...good to keep in the hip pocket for the future, but even a .5 cent increase in CASM is significant at our slim profit margins (not operating margins...no one cares about that). For more junior pilots, yes, they have a different story, since upgrade times are longer and E190 pay is less than stellar. But then, they know the situation when they sign up also. For anyone with my seniority or higher, there is not one airline they could have done better at here in the states. As upgrade times increase, I think more pressure will build to increase pay. With similar upgrade times, why come here instead of SWA? I think management will have to increase pay eventually, as long as we stay profitable. Yes, profit does matter. In case you haven't noticed, that is the main idea in our system of private enterprise. Earnings per share is the measurement that drives up stock price. Higher profits (and cash flow) are better for all of us, leading to options worth something, more profit sharing, and higher pay. Without it, fogettaboutit. Fuel prices. We don't control that, so it is easier to raise prices as a result of fuel cost increases. Raising prices to justify a pay raise is harder to sell. Bottom line...anyone here with any seniority has done way better than they could have anywhere else, so how can you complain about pay? (FNG: that is not to say I totally disagree with your COL argument...but I would rather have a significant pay raise later than a couple of percent now). OK, blast me, I can take it. It worked out well for me... I got mine screw the rest of you! |
Originally Posted by BlueSide
Cliff Notes....
It worked out well for me... I got mine screw the rest of you! |
Originally Posted by Meworry?
No doubt Cliff notes were a big part of your education. Not what I said.
For more junior pilots, yes, they have a different story, since upgrade times are longer and E190 pay is less than stellar. But then, they know the situation when they sign up also. For anyone with my seniority or higher, there is not one airline they could have done better at here in the states. This sound a lot like "I got mine, screw the rest... they knew what they were in for..." Maybe you should worry. Stillflyn |
Originally Posted by BlueSide
I might have used cliff notes in the past but I"m still pretty sure this is what you said. Let me take one of your quotes.....
For more junior pilots, yes, they have a different story, since upgrade times are longer and E190 pay is less than stellar. But then, they know the situation when they sign up also. For anyone with my seniority or higher, there is not one airline they could have done better at here in the states. This sound a lot like "I got mine, screw the rest... they knew what they were in for..." Maybe you should worry. Stillflyn Do I care what you think of my opinion? Only to the extent that I wish you would take the time to be a little more thoughtful. You never know, you might actually come up with a good idea. Thought for the Day: It's OK to think "out of the box," but first you have to know what's in the box. |
Originally Posted by Meworry?
Thought for the Day: It's OK to think "out of the box," but first you have to know what's in the box.
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Originally Posted by Meworry?
Thought for the Day: It's OK to think "out of the box," but first you have to know what's in the box.
|
Check again
ICON, I just reread the 'schedules' thread, and nowhere did I say anything about you and a union. Union did come up but not in my posts. I'm not fighting with anyone, life is way too short. Some people don't like to read opposing ideas or comments, but isn't that what these forums are about?
Now I did label you as a complainer, and that is factual, that is how that thread started. You started that thread with a complaint that you were apparently fishing for a bunch of 'misery love company' companionship. I just try to live my life and especially my work attitude a positive one, because no matter what, no mater how perfect things are, there is ALWAYS something to complain about. If a person looks for it there is ALWAYS something wrong with something. When I fly with or in past lives flew with someone like that I felt like slitting my wrists after a couple-day pairing. A bad attitude is a miserable thing to have or live with or inflict on somone else. Now please, I know that this implies that you are a negative pain to be with or around, but since this is an anonymous forum I have NO CLUE who you are or what you are like to fly with. You may be one of the really enjoyable people to fly with and save your complaining for this forum. I just don't know, but I can form an opinion from your posts here. I never said that I don't respect your viewpoint or that is wasn't factual, but there are so many other much bigger fish to fry that I see this complaint as trivial. Again that is from my point of view. Every suggestion for a fix to the late JFK schedules either showed a serious lack of caring [make LGB and FLL artificially late] or would cost money that right now we just don't have. My only real complaint [yes I have them] about you is you tend to write posts that are pretty harsh and then when confronted with it claim that you were 'just joking' Sorry that is 'just BS'. I find the overall mood and atmosphere on this entire forum to be dismal and negative. It's too bad that nobody can find something nice to say or comment on. Or when someone posts something positive or refutes a negative comment they are told to 'pull their head out of the sand' My head isn't buried in the sand, I just prefer to look through rose-colored glasses instead of sh*t-brown colored ones. |
I for one think we have a great company! We have a GREAT bunch of pilots! We are all in different aspects of career growth. Sometimes we complain. Sometimes we gripe. That's o.k. It doesn't matter if it is true or not because it comes from one perspective. Many times a problem may never be fixed but just acknowledging that it exists may be all that is needed.
For the dismal side of the board - just understand that it is a vent which can be healthy. In our model there are not many ways to voice opinions. At the end of the day we still laugh about it all. |
Originally Posted by Meworry?
I think that shows I am considering junior pilots; that because of upgrade time they will not do as well initially (but yes, they do know that coming in), and you ignore the rest of what I said. And please, tell me where I'm wrong! I have been here less than three years, and "I don't got mine" yet. My options are worth the same as everyone elses. Pilots with even less time here than I have, say less than two years, have plenty of things to complain about, but I don't think pay is one of them, and yes, partly because they knew what the pay was when they applied and interviewed. Senior pilots have even less to complain about. That is what I was saying. QOL issues are what we should be addressing, because we can fix those with relatively little cost. Some of us are actively trying to do that, including me, for everyone, which is why I don't like your cliff notes version of my view. If my attitude was as you say, I would not bother. In fact, I wouldn't even bother to participate in this forum.
Do I care what you think of my opinion? Only to the extent that I wish you would take the time to be a little more thoughtful. You never know, you might actually come up with a good idea. Thought for the Day: It's OK to think "out of the box," but first you have to know what's in the box. I agree with in addressing the QOL issues. I also agree that going after a fat raise at this point in time will probably do more harm than good. I actually think that JetBlue Mgmt. will do the right thing in that area when the time is right. Now.... we need to work on crew services. Stillflyn |
[QUOTE=B6Guy]
Now I did label you as a complainer, and that is factual, that is how that thread started. You started that thread with a complaint that you were apparently fishing for a bunch of 'misery love company' companionship. QUOTE] Anyone find it strange that every month JFK First Officer Schedules are late....due to IROPS, Asian Bird Flu, Mad Cow Disease, ETC.. I believe this was an observation. Dude, you have a tendency to label everyone on this board a complainer or a conspiracy theorist. I made one observation, never mentioned a conspiracy, or any anti-management sentiment yet this is the kind of post you are making through your rose colored glasses. B6GUY I expected this responce from you two especially. The comment about the 'conspiracy theorists' was to thwart the inevitable comments from the likes of you two about management expecting the labor side of the company to open their wallets without management doing the same. WTF There are no saints on message boards. It's great that we get along , but if we don't...whatever. Plus someone wise once said: I like to complain. It is so much fun because you listen. If no one listened then it would not be any fun. I also like the internet. This is a match made in heaven. Later..................Now how about all those e-mails we keep getting. |
I guess I don't understand why B6 and others are so worried about the "tone" of this message board.
I've trawled flightinfo and I find the same insecure people desperately trying to defend the honor of Jetblue. If our operation is so head-and-tails above everyone elses then why should anyone worry about a few whiners on a message board? I can read back through this board and find at least 20 very specific problems that will surely get bigger and bigger over time. But our biggest problem prevents all of the other ones from being fixed. Namely: arogant SOB's defending very lucrative turf. If another pilot tells me to speak up or get involved or be proactive after two years of banging my head against a wall, I'm going to put a dookie in his flight bag. .....oh my!???....how unprofessional!!!.....how did she get past the interview process???? Because, after all, we're SO different from the rest of the airline world, right? Keep telling yourselves that. |
Originally Posted by bluebird
I guess I don't understand why B6 and others are so worried about the "tone" of this message board.
I've trawled flightinfo and I find the same insecure people desperately trying to defend the honor of Jetblue. If our operation is so head-and-tails above everyone elses then why should anyone worry about a few whiners on a message board? I can read back through this board and find at least 20 very specific problems that will surely get bigger and bigger over time. But our biggest problem prevents all of the other ones from being fixed. Namely: arogant SOB's defending very lucrative turf. If another pilot tells me to speak up or get involved or be proactive after two years of banging my head against a wall, I'm going to put a dookie in his flight bag. .....oh my!???....how unprofessional!!!.....how did she get past the interview process???? Because, after all, we're SO different from the rest of the airline world, right? Keep telling yourselves that. Brilliant! |
Originally Posted by bluebird
I'm going to put a dookie in his flight bag.
.....oh my!???....how unprofessional!!!.....how did she get past the interview process???? Because, after all, we're SO different from the rest of the airline world, right? Keep telling yourselves that. |
Sale at Walmart?
There must have been a sale at Walmart on the Sh*t-Colored glasses.
I really like this company, and enjoy working here. It gets under my skin when I read all the complaining and whining on this forum. So I oppose it with a more positive point of view. Oh well I guess I need to go to walmart and buy some glasses, ..... Naw, not me, life is too short to go around being negative all the time. ICON; you started that thread with an 'observation' but it was a complaint as well. And as for pulling quotes from other threads, be careful, you have some real winners out there in print that can be pulled out of context too. Have a great day!!! |
Originally Posted by B6Guy
Oh well I guess I need to go to walmart and buy some glasses, .....
Hey B6 have you read the comments on the survey results? Funny, most of them mirror this board. I guess everyone is just whining and complaining. You better go oppose the survey results with more positiveness to quell everyone. The more you type the funnier this board becomes. |
Survey comments
Actually my survey grading and comments make this board look like a Blue-Koolaid party. Nobody would connect my [usually positive] comments made here with what I wrote on the survey [almost entirely negative].
The reason for the inconsistancy?? Comments here are public, tend to grow and feed on each other and inflame the negativism. Constant feeding on each other's negativism will rapidly make us just another airline. The only thing we have going for us is our attitudes and the atmosphere we create for the other crewmembers and the customers. I hope negative comments and bad grades on the survey go the people who can and maybe will do something about the problems. So go ahead and slam me: I believe that the survey means [or used to mean] something. Did anyone comment on the survey [or on the forum] how the questions have changed so that there is no real way to track year by year the true trends?? No way to track the employee's satifaction with their jobs that the survey supposedly tracks?? This is very disturbing to me. It makes the survey a fraud and a farce. If the questions were the same as the last few years, then the results would have been much much worse. Is this a surprise that the questions changed with the new DBushy regiem [sp?] ?? This way he can change the questions each year and the survey will mean nothing at all. There, everyone happy now?? I made some negative comments!! 2 Blue, I'm glad I provide some entertainment and comedy in your life: [2-Blue]Quote: I like to complain. It is so much fun because you listen. If no one listened then it would not be any fun. I also like the internet. This is a match made in heaven. What a way to live your life. Sad actually, you must be a lot of fun to be around. B6Guy |
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