who cares
 

Gman,

It seems to me you have run out of things to complain about.

Hey V, sorry to hear that. I would say that the majority of JB pilots are now furloughed ALPA pilots from other carriers. Tehcnically...they are all now non union while working at JB. These people felt that JB was good enough to provide an income while they remain furloughed from their respective ALPA carriers and seem to have no problem with JB not having a union...for the moment. Why should you? In fact, in many cases, the current pay scale for an A320 CA at JB exceeds what most, if not all, legacy carrier CA's are currently being paid.

Just Thinking
 

Well, I would normally not repost an answer without good merrit but I think the folks at Jet Blue have a similar issue as Skywest. Just replace SkyWest with "Jet Blue" in each sentence and it will carry the same message...

"If you vote ALPA in dont expect a drastic change at SkyWest. I would say that things at Skywest are ok but there are signs of things to come that may go south (bad)...

Pilots dont care to hear about unions until thier company starts treating them badly, then it takes a while for the union to make a change and it becomes the Unions fault that things are bad. Now would be a great time for the pilots of SkyWest to join ALPA. Why? Well, because things are not so bad, you have time to get up and running, elect your officers, read about the services, set up comitees, learn more... about everything. Then, if, and only if, things get bad you have the support already set up to help.

Pilots sometimes think our careers are like the airplane, we set the autopilot and everything will coast along just fine. Well, when Skywest starts to get lots of growth, much greater income, and new aicraft types thats when their managment may feel tempted to forget who led the way with performance to earn that growth. Its at that time that managment sets the tone and pay and workrules... Thats when you need a union, but Unions dont fix things overnight. We are all the union, you , me, the next guy or gal, we all have to remember that when John Prater shows up to say he supports you and the pilots of Skywest that doesnt mean he will personally fight the entire fight himself. SkyWest pilots will be the one calling the shots and John, along with the rest of ALPA will be the Echoing voice.

Good Luck

PS- I recommend going to the show and listening then ask questions, then deside. Also, read Flying the Line I and II"


So there it is. My thoughts for you to consider. Forget the name calling and jumpseat fights just sit down and consider your careers and how it may benefit you and the rest of the pilots. Even if ALPA is not your option you can still do the inhouse deal and join http://www.capapilots.org/about.asp then work with ALPA and others...

Let me address both your points.

1. As Union members, they should have known better than to accept employment at a non-Union carrier which AT THE TIME was paying well below legacy wages/benefits. They opportunisticly took advantage of their furlough to "jump ahead" in seniority, hoping B6 would be a survivor. They UNDERCUT EVERY UNION PILOT IN AMERICA!!! And they knew full well what they were doing when they were doing it. Then, they tried to justify it saying, "I had to feed my family." That's how scabs justify crossing picket lines.

2. The current pay scales for narrowbody Capts. at legacy carriers is a direct result of B6 pay scales. How can you not see that. B6 was going great guns, making money and was the darling of the industry, BASED ON LOWER LABOR COSTS AND SWEETHEART AIRBUS LEASES. Legacy managers used the Bankruptcy Code to dump their retirement obligations and gut Union pay scales. The early success of B6 was the impetus for the suffering UAL and USAir pilots experience today.

Extend 'professional courtesy' to these guys? I think not.

V, do you really believe that B6 single handedly brought the current airline industry to it's knees? Surely not. Nobody could stop what the current airline management groups did to their respective carriers. The bankruptcy courts obviously favor management and despise labor. I will agree that B6 started out so well due to their lower labor costs and good leases. However, the compensation and benefits package was enhanced at the end of Dec. 2001 with 100% retroactive pay to October 31, 2001. That particular pay scale is for the Airbus only. Yes, the pay scales for the 190 jet are dismal at best, honestly they are criminal. One of the men behind that particular pay scale was an ex VP of flight ops at DL. A man that was a line pilot with DL who eventually climbed within DL management and ended up with B6 as our VP of flight ops. He too was an ALPA pilot and spent many years as one. My point...another example of legacy management making it's way into the degrading of a labor force. With ALPA on the property and the respective carriers NOT in bankruptcy I fully believe that the legacy scales would still be at an acceptable scale. Once in bankruptcy...it does not matter what B6 scales are, there are plenty of other carriers that have lower pay scales for similar equipment types...B6 is not the bottom. B6 never had to turn a wheel for the pay scales to end up where they did.

I disagree with your opinion that B6 destroyed the industry. The wheels were already in motion and 911 perpetuated the downward spiral. Bankruptcy and the management friendly courts put the nails in the coffin. Many of the current pilots at B6 are still ALPA. I still remain a current and up to date inactive member since my last ALPA carrier. My last carrier was an in house union. I recall being chastised when I started there as well because CA's across the board were only making 80K per year on everything from 727's to 747's. Now, that same company pays their CA's in excess of 200K per year. You have to start somewhere.

You misunderstood my post. I didn't say B6 brought the industry to its knees, just the pay scales. B6 illustrated what pilots would work for. Now Skybus seeks to lower the bar further. And they'll get pilots to work for that.

Just don't come asking for jumpseat rides from carriers you've stabbed in the back.

Well, I truly do not feel that B6 has stabbed anyone in the back. Nor has Spirit, AirTran, ATA and even UPS in it's early days. So...please tell me, did the management at all of the legacy's have to lower the current pay scales to where they are now? No, they chose to do so because they could...bankruptcy court allows that. B6 or any other smaller carrier did not have anything to do with it, V. I truly believe that B6 could have never existed and the respective management teams would have cut the pay scales in the same manner and just as severe.

But, they cut the pay scales AFTER B6 showed them they could do it and get away with it. Look at the time line. The B6 media darlings helped accelerate the downward spiral. You're a part of that, whether you want to admit it or not.

Velocipede,

Since you want to put blame on those who accept jobs with lower wages then you must include when some of you at DAL, UAL etc. drove the wages so high the only thing it could do was come crashing down. Thats exactly what it did after 911 and it gave those airlines an excuse to file CH.11 and drasticly lower their cost. It seems you want to blame others for something you probalbly have participated in yourself, looking in the mirror every now and then might do you some good. Persecuting others for your own political campaign does nothing but hurt you and your fellow pilots who know who you are. Ex. You seem to enjoy bragging that you have and will refuse jumpseat to anyone at a non union airline. That has consequences of their own. If you dont care I am sure the pilots you fly with do, who will run into the backlash of your actions. I personally believe the cockpit is no place for politics and I am sure your company manual does not say that. Just a thought before you decide to refuse a guy who is trying to catch a ride home. Thats what a reciprcal agreement is for and all on that list.

Take care

So what you are saying is that if the UAL and DAL pilots had not achieved their last contract prior to 9/11, then neither of them would have filed chap 11?

If that's what you are stating, then FWIW I cannot agree with you.

I firmly believe both UAL and DAL would have gone Chapter 11 without the higher cost contracts. Neither USAir or NWA had those pay rates and they filed.

The tragedy of 9/11 gave airline managements the tool they could only dream about, the ability to wipe out labor's contracts legally and without a strike.

JMHO.