Excellent response I am humbled by your wit. Unfortunately it seems we agree that shouting GA from the jumpseat is quite a Dic move

It is only a dick move if you are wrong. Jumpseaters are additional CREW members, part of Crew Resource Management. Ask the Cathay Pacific 747 crew, that was probably fatigued, how grateful they were that the Second Officer in the JS called a go around at DH. For more back story, they were shooting an autoland to a runway in NY where it was NOTAMed OTS or at least was not authorized for autoland - since they were fatigued. The CA and FO shot the approach, I am sure the SO was hesitant to speak up as there is a steep authority gradient there. Reviewing FDAP (Flight Data Acquisition Program- what we call FOQA over here in the U S and A) they would have gone off the runway if it was not for the SO in the jumpseat calling the missed. Imagine breaking out at ILS minimums (might have been CAT II) to see the plane is not aligned with the runway!

If you are going to call go around from the jumpseat you had better be damn sure that they were going to bend metal if you kept your mouth shut. So etiquette in my mind would be if you see them correcting the problem don't speak up, if they are deviating and both of them seem to be in outer space then it might be worth dropping a hint, like "I don't think this approach is authorized." "Why is it barking too low terrain?" Think Flying Tiger Flight 66. Or more likely, "Hey it looks like you left the speed brakes out (while you are giving it more thrust)."

If you voice a concern early and they explain something is normal for their operation you won't feel the need to call a go around. In that Cathay Pacific example, imagine the SO would have told the CA/FO to pick another approach...they would not have needed to go around. I would imagine the need to actually call a go around is VERY, VERY low on most days and flight decks, but the fact that 80% of recent accidents are caused by human error means that there is a possibility of needing to say something. Timing is probably the key here.

A good CA will execute a go around that is not necessary, over the idea of continuing when someone on the flight deck has a concern in a time critical situation. It is one heck of a lot easier to talk to the other person alive on the ground if they were wrong, than to wish you would have listened to it when you bend metal or worse end up 6 ft under. Imagine the CA on that 747 decided to continue, into the grass. Going around and coming back a second time was a whole lot better than writing off a 747, tearing up the grass and figuring out what to tell the company, NTSB etc, etc.

Well thank you. I just don't know why some of you guys feel the need to write a thesis.

Especially since it's likely that 100% of us on here would agree on the fact that we are all going to call a go-around if we think we are in imminent danger of immediate death.

Speak up if you are on the jump seat.

Be respectful, but be heard.

Most pilots I fly with will respond back with either continue, or Go-around.

One dot high will definitely put you out of the TDZ, but on a clear VFR day with plenty of runway there is a possibility that the CA will announce continue. Is it "stable"? No. Is it unsafe? No. I don't like the engines unspooled, but depending on the circumstances it may be a debrief item. And, yes you should participate in the debrief.

High and fast: speak up
Low and slow: speak up
Crew lost SA: speak up
unheard radio transmission: speak up
missing a taxiway: speak up
traffic to follow, or traffic in sight: speak up

It's a free set of extra eyes and ears. I think it's just great insurance. In a complex approach, I usually brief the jump-seater about stuff to watch for. I also point out MEL's, or anything that may need to be ignored or silenced on the take-off due to inoperative stuff to prevent an unnecessary reject.

If the crew is flying into an unfamiliar airport and you are very familiar with it, feel free to point out "gotcha's" to the airport or the airspace and any "hot spots" that aren't pointed out or briefed. I love local knowledge and appreciate the education.

The jump seat is the "smart seat". That is part of my JS briefing.

As a captain, some wrinkle to my ego is far preferable to a wrinkle to my ship.

If some Ricardo Cabeza jumpseater called "go around", I'm going.

I'll collect the extra pay, and after we have safely landed, we'll sort it out.

Where's the harm in going around?.......

So, if no harm ( damage, injury or violation) in accepting a go round, no harm in calling it.

There are a few here needing an ego check.

I would only call a go around if I felt a safe outcome of the flight was seriously in jeapardy.

Being ~20-30 feet high at 400 ft would not fall into that category on must runways. There's lots of runways where you can see almost a dot difference between the ils glide slope and papi. Short runway, contaminated runway, etc, may be a different story. But floating an extra 1000 feet on a 9000+ runway isn't nearly as big of a deal as you are making it. Bad habit? Yes. Worthy of a comment? Perhaps, yes at an appropriate time.

The one dot issue is not nearly as disturbing as the motors at idle, unspooled, increased rate of descent to catch the glide path, and UNSTABLE, from a point prior to the snap shot description made by the OP of the approach profile.

Does no one remember Asiana 214? Two words could have saved 3 lives. I had an instructor who used to say "Use your override authority like a cop uses his fire arm, as a last resort to save your own life." I don't know that that still applies today.

99.9% of the time speaking up in the Jumpseat is the wrong thing to do. That .1% though, everyone will be thankful you did.

^^^THIS^^^

How many of us would wait until impact was imminent? Realistically it would have been along the lines of:
"speed"
"Check your speed."
"AIR SPEED!!!"

If bad things are imminent, call GA. A dot high isn't one of them.

Been there. Done that.

Widebody going into a Mideast airport after a 13 hour overnight trip from the states. ATC goat-roped the vectors and dumped us in too high and too fast. Approach was unstable from the get go. FO was doing his best to get it back in the groove, but it wasn't really coming together for him, despite idle thrust, full boards, flaps, & happy thoughts. From the Jumpseat I called "unstable" at about 1500' and again at 1000'. At 500' the FO decided he wasn't going to get it where it needed to be and mumbled something about guessing we should go around. That's when the CA took the controls and landed the jet anyway. Out of the TDZ, but got it stopped before running out of runway.

In retrospect, I would have been much firmer in calling the go around at 500' myself. From the jumpseat.

Waiting till 400' to advise the operating crew of a hazard that you had seen at 1500' would be a "dic move". But if you first see the hazard at 400', that's when you should say something.

The FOM I operate under does not authorize me to continue an unstable approach below 500'. I don't know what regulations some of the other guys on here are using.

Dangerous attitude to have...if I am unstable and a not recognizing it...I would call "go around" call a CRM success. Your attitude reeks of one of those old school captains in our yearly safety briefings (usually stories about dead guys with huge egos).

were you "part of the crew" and the IRO/Bunkie? Or were you jumpseating?

Get over yourself, Mr. arrogant. Your statement reeks of hyperbole.

There have been plenty of posts in this thread already detailing how it should be done by a jumpseater (who is NOT a member of the crew). It's called speaking up and being specific about what you see. If your life is in imminent danger, yes, call it or shout it. However, if they are simply a bit unstable, go ahead and speak up if you feel it necessary, but do NOT call a go-around from that guest jumpseat unless you strongly sense that the alternative is an accident or incident about to happen.

So, what IS your experience level, anyway? Looking at your short post history, I see some references to your "wife" being hired at Republic, and then less than six weeks later, you mentioning a "friend" who's been in training there for three weeks. You made some pretty inflammatory claims about bed bugs, etc., then when someone questioned your claims, crickets from you. Nothing. Was it a your "wife" or a "friend" who was in training there? Was it you, maybe?

I'm pretty sure I don't believe anything coming from your mouth, er, keyboard, Mr. Nuke.

I don't need to defend my credibility to you. I am just chipping in my 2 cents just like everyone else. The quantity of one's forum posts does not correlate with one's experience or wisdom...get over yourself.

" Jumpseating, Safety, and Security

While exercising the privileges of FAR 121.547 as a jumpseater, whether you are seated in the flight deck or in the cabin, you are considered an additional crewmember and should conduct yourself accordingly. Keep your eyes and ears open if you are sitting on the flight deck; an additional crewmember can be a valuable safety asset. Wear a headset and observe sterile cockpit rules, but speak up when necessary. Jumpseaters may also serve as a security asset by helping with flight deck door openings and, in an extreme case, protecting the flight crew from an assault on the flight deck. "

OK. First, if ALPA says it's so, and you choose to differ from their protocol, you aren't riding on my jumpseat. If you continuously operate with this attitude you may very well jeopardize the jumpseat agreement for all SWA's pilots. If you decide that you can just saunter aboard my plane and settle in the back and eat our meals and expect to not participate in the safe outcome of our flight while we fly you to your destination, you'll be looking for another ride.

Jumpseaters are a valuable resource and should be treated accordingly. If you think you are the high and mighty sole source of information for your flight and won't listen to your FA's, your passengers, or your jumpseater, then you are a lousy airline pilot who is looking for his next incident/accident.

Your attempt to blow off ALPA's jumpseat protocol is a sure sign of someone who has no respect for the lessons of the past, no respect for fellow professional pilots, and no respect for the concept of CRM/TEM.

With your attitude, you might want to reconsider your career choice.

8

I rode up front on Southwest a couple months ago and the CA said to me: "Speak up if you see something you don't like, because if I end up on the carpet, I promise you, you'll be standing right next to me!" He said it with a big smile and was actually a very cool guy and very welcoming.

Here is your FAR now show me where it says you are a member of the crew?

121.547 Admission to flight deck.
(a) No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is -

(1) A crewmember;

(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;

(3) Any person who -

(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and

(ii) Is an employee of -

(A) The United States, or

(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or

(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.

(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator. Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flightdeck in the interests of safety.

(b) For the purposes of paragraph (a)(3) of this section, employees of the United States who deal responsibly with matters relating to safety and employees of the certificate holder whose efficiency would be increased by familiarity with flight conditions, may be admitted by the certificate holder. However, the certificate holder may not admit employees of traffic, sales, or other departments that are not directly related to flight operations, unless they are eligible under paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

(c) No person may admit any person to the flight deck unless there is a seat available for his use in the passenger compartment, except -

(1) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or authorized representative of the Administrator or National Transportation Safety Board who is checking or observing flight operations;

(2) An air traffic controller who is authorized by the Administrator to observe ATC procedures;

(3) A certificated airman employed by the certificate holder whose duties require an airman certificate;

(4) A certificated airman employed by another part 119 certificate holder whose duties with that part 119 certificate holder require an airman certificate and who is authorized by the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft to make specific trips over a route;

(5) An employee of the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft whose duty is directly related to the conduct or planning of flight operations or the in-flight monitoring of aircraft equipment or operating procedures, if his presence on the flightdeck is necessary to perform his duties and he has been authorized in writing by a responsible supervisor, listed in the Operations Manual as having that authority; and

(6) A technical representative of the manufacturer of the aircraft or its components whose duties are directly related to the in-flight monitoring of aircraft equipment or operating procedures, if his presence on the flightdeck is necessary to perform his duties and he has been authorized in writing by the Administrator and by a responsible supervisor of the operations department of the part 119 certificate holder, listed in the Operations Manual as having that authority.

[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19220, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Doc. No. 8084, 32 FR 5769, Apr. 11, 1967; Amdt. 121-253, 61 FR 2613, Jan. 26, 1996; Amdt. 121-288, 67 FR 2127, Jan. 15, 2002; Amdt. 121-298, 68 FR 41217, July 10, 2003]

Hey big talker I didn't once say don't speak up if you are about to die but you don't seem to get that. I also pointed out about 40 times that the jumps eaters are great tools but not crewmembers. I guess reading wasn't a requirement at your airline.

I also never said don't listen to your crew members or even the jumpseater but then again this goes back to basic reading comprehension which I see you have little of.

What I said is I don't recommend a jumpseater starts yelling go around at 500 feet for being a dot high introducing confusion into the cockpit at low altitude. This could cause a lot more harm that landing outside of the touchdown zone.

As for ALPA go suck it. The only thing they did for me while I was part of them was get me low pay and a second class tiered system. So, if you want to kick me off your jumpseat for not praying to the altar of ALPA please do as that is your right just be prepared to explain it to your jumpseat coordinator. Then again you seem like the internet commando type so I don't think I have to worry about missing any trips home.

The sad thing is if you're so lost in the cockpit that you have to take directions from a jumpseater from another airline then maybe you should reconsider your career choice.

Well that escalated quickly...

Are you saying that you wouldn't take directions from a jumpseater?

I trust jumpseaters to be professional pilots and will know when to speak up. So, no, not lost in the cockpit, but I am aware enough to listen when someone speaks up and not let anger or ego issues get in the way and I'm certainly not about to get flustered if someone makes a bonehead "go around" call at 500 feet when one is not justified.

If and when you do jumpseat on other airlines, you might want to remember that most will consider you to be a member of the crew; an "ACM" or Additional Crew Member. Although I am not flying for an ALPA airline, I certainly respect the work they have done to secure jumpseats and I abide by the APLA rules and protocols when I am on an APLA airline. Including considering myself as an additional crewmember and participating in the safe outcome of the flight when necessary.

8

Most of the jumpseaters I see are sound asleep.

Sure, on the 777, but MadDogs and 737s only offer the "Seat of Woe". :(

19 pages over this?

Lol you caught me Tom, hope retirement is treating you well and that you and your family are doing well.

There have been plenty of people with very few posts who can keep their story straight. I called you out because your previous posts are all over the map and therefore lack credibility.

Once again your reading comprehension is sorely lacking. I have said about 50 times now that the Jumpseater is an extra resource and if he sees something that is going to kill us say something. Calling go around for being a dot high at 500 feet is moronic.

Ego has nothing to do with this except yours seems to be bruised that we don't want to hear you call go around from the jumpseat for something so minor as being a dot high. The fact it will cause more problems than it could help also seem to shake your fragile ego in that you keep trying to put words in my mouth.

Let me once again be straight with you since your reading comprehension is lacking.

-You are not a member of the crew no matter how badly you want to be.

-Jumpseaters can be a great resource when things go wrong.

-ALPA Sucks

-As a jumpseater speak up if the airplane is going to crash.

-If you are afraid of being a dot high on the glideslope please find another profession.

-If you are so lost in the cockpit that the jumpseater has to tell you to go around please find another profession.