DENpilot

Just curious, is there any etiquette or what would would you do....?

400' agl, engines still at idle, full dot high on GS, ultimately landed outside TDZ. First time I've been scared in the jumpseat.

jcountry

This goes way beyond etiquette.....

You would NEVER say anything like "go around" from the Jumpseat!

It would definitely cause confusion-and you are very close to the ground.

Think about it..... it's fine to point stuff out, and contribute to a broader perspective if you see anything unsafe, but all commands and call outs should always be the domain of the pilots operating the plane.

Telling someone to "go around" from the Jumpseat makes about as much sense as calling "runway in sight," or "my aircraft." None of those things should ever be said by jumpseaters.

Id never even think about using any command from the Jumpseat.

iceman49

Just curious, what did it look like at 1500, 1000'....

SEPfield

That's a difficult situation and I would say largely dependent on the Crew you are jumpseating with. I always brief my jumpseaters that if they see anything that looks unusual or unsafe then to please bring it to my attention. I have flown as an enlisted crew member in the Air Force and as a flight engineer and I understand how having a third pair of eyes overlooking the big picture can greatly increase safety. I would say if you feel the safety of the aircraft is in jeapordy then you are completely justified in calling a go around.

ShyGuy

So if you're on the jumpseat of say UPS 1354, then just go ahead and die?

If it's bad enough, call the go around. Then on the ground you can discuss. And as long as it was a justified go around, what's the captain going to do, chew you out? Go to his jumpseat committee chairman? Worse case scenario when the event is done and landed safely is the CA chews you out. Anything the CA tries to take to the "higher up" will just open the door for drawing more attention to himself for the event that led to the go around in the first place.

Bama McCall

Definitely speak up, I would. Maybe not call go around but mention something about looks unstable, high, hint at them the best you can. That's just a tough spot to be in.

WesternSkies

You not knowing the distracting danger of a jumpseater calling a go-around at 400 ft worries me more than a dot high, high energy on a 12 or 16,000 foot runway.

awax

Seriously, not even to save you own life? There's no etiquette, do the passengers in the back a favor and say something.

Can you name an airline culture where the jumpseater isn't considered to be part of the crew? After all, that's the premise for allowing the captain to extended the professional courtesy, right? If guys get close to the ground and are behind the aircraft, I agree that one should choose the phrasing carefully to avoid compounding any confusion. But if I'm sitting in the middle seat, below 200' and it's a total $*it show. Yep, I'm going to speak up.

I think the important filter is that I'd be speaking up to avoid a situation that hurts people, not alerting guys that they aren't flying an approach to check ride standards. FOQA will rat most everything out & if the crew isn't aware their out of parameters it may be time to pay attention to why.

I was on the jumpseat this morning and the Captain, an LCA, told me that if I saw something I didn't like to speak up and don't be afraid to be blunt. My take away is that guys don't start any phase of flight looking to get FUBAR, sometimes they do need some gentle (or not so gentle) nudging to convince them to try something different.

jcountry

This is what I'd do.

Giving a hint is fine. Pointing something out is fine, but commands-Nope. Definitely not fine.

jcountry

I know of a situation where a plane (737) landed so hard the nose gear axle broke....

One tire went bounding down the runway to get ingested by the left engine, the other got ingested by the right.... Fortunately, they just slid to a stop on or near the runway with some pretty extensive damage...... But that easily could have killed everyone onboard.

Why?

Because as the pilots broke out, one said "I got it."

The guy who said it meant "I have the runway in sight."

The other guy released controls because he thought the "I got it" meant the other pilot was taking control of the aircraft..... So the plane touched down with both pilots thinking the other guy had the controls.

Easy to see how bad things happen if the wrong thing is said at the wrong time. And "go around" from a jumpseater is always the wrong thing.

-Of course we can all imagine situations where the jumpseater would need to say something..... I would recommend "check your glideslope" or "you are unstable." Nothing wrong with speaking up, just don't use the exact phrase another pilot would use to trigger any maneuver.