Here we go again...
07-28-2017, 05:57 PM
#11
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,988
Originally Posted by RI830
We get all amped up about the number of hours a pilot may have when hired, but why is that the only matrix that we judge a pilot off of?
Number of hours is only a measure of how long he/she has mindlessly sat in an airplane. It doesn't prove how good of a stick they are, how their decision making capabilities are or whether they can get themselves out of a wet paper sack when asked.
I'm not in favor of dropping the hours to any particular level, but finding a way to assess a pilots skill set prior to plopping them into an RJ. Majors have video interviews, in person interviews and psych tests to gain an understanding of their decision making and persona. A sim session should always be required to include more than the standard pattern to a landing.
I've seen guys with 500 hrs who out fly guys with 2500 hrs. And I've seen 10,000 guys who can't make an assertive decision to save their lives. So to say a guy who has 1500 hrs is suddenly qualified to fly is a joke. In these crashes, there were two people in the cockpit, not just a low time FO.....where is the legislation to increase PIC mins? Many regionals are upgrading guys in 6-12 months, I find this far more dangerous than hiring a guy with only 1000-1200 hrs
Just my 0.02 cents
Number of hours is only a measure of how long he/she has mindlessly sat in an airplane. It doesn't prove how good of a stick they are, how their decision making capabilities are or whether they can get themselves out of a wet paper sack when asked.
I'm not in favor of dropping the hours to any particular level, but finding a way to assess a pilots skill set prior to plopping them into an RJ. Majors have video interviews, in person interviews and psych tests to gain an understanding of their decision making and persona. A sim session should always be required to include more than the standard pattern to a landing.
I've seen guys with 500 hrs who out fly guys with 2500 hrs. And I've seen 10,000 guys who can't make an assertive decision to save their lives. So to say a guy who has 1500 hrs is suddenly qualified to fly is a joke. In these crashes, there were two people in the cockpit, not just a low time FO.....where is the legislation to increase PIC mins? Many regionals are upgrading guys in 6-12 months, I find this far more dangerous than hiring a guy with only 1000-1200 hrs
Just my 0.02 cents
Whether it's instructing, 135 single pilot ops, military flying, there's value in flight hours and experience. Keeping a 250 hour product of a puppy mill out of an RJ cockpit where what little skills and experience he has will atrophy is a good thing. It's possible a pilot could fly 1500 pattern only flights, 1 hour at a time around his home drome in a -152, rack up 1500 hours and few thousand touch and gos and meet the requirement. But when he goes to his interview, the quality of his flight experience is going to come out. If they decide to hire him, there's still the hurdle of initial training, the sim/LOFTs and IOE. Same thing if and when he tries to upgrade. The guys upgrading in 6-12 months maybe those guys you mentioned who were out-flying everyone when they had 500 hours and have decision making skills that would water your eyes. Who knows? But there has to be some level of trust in the evaluations these pilots are given during training before they're released to the line. A lot of flying and valuable experience can happen in 6-12 months. You scoff at 1500 hours of flight time as a benchmark for a new-hire, but somehow 6-12 months is your personal cutoff to allow a guy to upgrade? What's acceptable there? 15 months? 24? Back to hours again? Chances are the guy's showing up with bare minimum qualifications as a new hire wouldn't be ready for upgrade if they tried.
My point is that most guys with 1500 hours have probably flown those hours doing something other than "mindlessly sitting" and there are some pretty good filters beyond just hours before they arrive in the right seat of something flying passengers. So, hours are not the one an only thing being looked at when evaluating a pilot's capabilities, but there has to be a minimum. Using the flight hours required for an ATP seems like a reasonably good starting point.
08-01-2017, 12:54 PM
#13
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: CL650
Posts: 238
In my home state, you must have a minimum 1600 hours experience before earning a cosmetology license....
It's embarrassing to read some of the arguments to abolish the 1500 hour rule for pilots.
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It's embarrassing to read some of the arguments to abolish the 1500 hour rule for pilots.
Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk
08-01-2017, 02:11 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 846
Originally Posted by Macjet
Wash out? While they still have money on their account? That'll never happen.
What money does a pilot have with their airline employer? If he doesn't have the required skills, then the airline is required to wash them out.
08-01-2017, 02:15 PM
#15
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Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 846
Originally Posted by iahflyr
All the 1500 hour rule did was shift those poverty wages down to CFI and Part 135 level. Instead of getting on with a regional at 500 hours and being done with regional crap first year pay after one year (At maybe 1,000ish hours TT), now you get crap pay from 250-1500 hours, and get marginally ok pay 1st year at a regional (when before you would be at 2nd year pay by then).
They just need to flat out lower the minimum hours to something reasonable, like 750 or 1000 hours. Putting the "structured classroom training" just creates winners (Part 141 schools or aviation universities) and losers (everyone else).
I argue that the 1500 hour rule made everything less safe. In the past when regionals had plenty of applicants, they could pick and choose the best. Now that there is such a shortage of people with 1500 hours, they are forced to hire people who before would have been previously passed up (Multiple training failures, DUI's, lack of systems knowledge, etc...).
They just need to flat out lower the minimum hours to something reasonable, like 750 or 1000 hours. Putting the "structured classroom training" just creates winners (Part 141 schools or aviation universities) and losers (everyone else).
I argue that the 1500 hour rule made everything less safe. In the past when regionals had plenty of applicants, they could pick and choose the best. Now that there is such a shortage of people with 1500 hours, they are forced to hire people who before would have been previously passed up (Multiple training failures, DUI's, lack of systems knowledge, etc...).
Ah, that's already part of the currently regulation! If you are in a "structured program" you can get an ATP with 1000 or 750 hours.
By the way, the 1500 atp rule has also helped wages rise at the 135 and CFI level as well.
08-01-2017, 02:16 PM
#16
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Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: retired 767(dl)
Posts: 5,730
Originally Posted by jetlag7
In my home state, you must have a minimum 1600 hours experience before earning a cosmetology license....
It's embarrassing to read some of the arguments to abolish the 1500 hour rule for pilots.
Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk
It's embarrassing to read some of the arguments to abolish the 1500 hour rule for pilots.
Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk
08-07-2017, 04:18 PM
#18
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Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 859
Originally Posted by PRS Guitars
So don't sell yourself short as a CFI for crappy pay. I started as a CFI at $20 an hour and was charging $30 per hour by the end of my first year. When I quit to join the Air Force I was charging $55 an hour and took a pretty big pay cut. I was an independent contractor at a large flying club. I had to work hard to build up my clientele. I spent 10 hours a day (unpaid) 5 to 6 days a week, hanging out at the flight school counter trying to pick up new students. Once I started building up my base, I was turning away business from being too busy.
And charge for handshake to handshake. If you work hard have good customer service skills, a good demeanor in the plane and are a competent instructor, people will gladly pay $40 to $50 an hour. One other thing, though time building is your ultimate goal, don't act like that. Focus on the job you currently hold and you will excel at it, which will open doors. This applies to every job you have as you climb the ladder.
And charge for handshake to handshake. If you work hard have good customer service skills, a good demeanor in the plane and are a competent instructor, people will gladly pay $40 to $50 an hour. One other thing, though time building is your ultimate goal, don't act like that. Focus on the job you currently hold and you will excel at it, which will open doors. This applies to every job you have as you climb the ladder.
08-07-2017, 04:46 PM
#19
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Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 2,297
Originally Posted by ReadyRsv
So first you say don't sell yourself short, then you say work 50-60 hours a week unpaid.
Yeah, I had to invest some time initially, but the payoff was that I set my own rate (above an agreed to minimum), was paid for all ground and flight time, and kept every penny. I did have to be a member of the club ($30 a month at the time) but that also got me covered under their insurance.
Compare that to some of these larger schools that charge the customer $50 an hour and then give the instructor $12 or so. So their instructors are a source of revenue.
The independent route is harder to get started at and you won't initially build as many hours, so it's not for everyone. But it is a viable to way to make a living. And that was the point of my post, you don't have to suffer through low wages, there are options.
Another option is the Air Force, which is what I did after the terror attacks on 11 Sept 2001.
08-12-2017, 01:42 PM
#20
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Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Seat: Vegan friendly faux leather
Posts: 988
Originally Posted by PRS Guitars
So don't sell yourself short as a CFI for crappy pay. I started as a CFI at $20 an hour and was charging $30 per hour by the end of my first year. When I quit to join the Air Force I was charging $55 an hour and took a pretty big pay cut. I was an independent contractor at a large flying club. I had to work hard to build up my clientele. I spent 10 hours a day (unpaid) 5 to 6 days a week, hanging out at the flight school counter trying to pick up new students. Once I started building up my base, I was turning away business from being too busy.
And charge for handshake to handshake. If you work hard have good customer service skills, a good demeanor in the plane and are a competent instructor, people will gladly pay $40 to $50 an hour. One other thing, though time building is your ultimate goal, don't act like that. Focus on the job you currently hold and you will excel at it, which will open doors. This applies to every job you have as you climb the ladder.
And charge for handshake to handshake. If you work hard have good customer service skills, a good demeanor in the plane and are a competent instructor, people will gladly pay $40 to $50 an hour. One other thing, though time building is your ultimate goal, don't act like that. Focus on the job you currently hold and you will excel at it, which will open doors. This applies to every job you have as you climb the ladder.
