Since all (except myself) have gone West, I will post. It was the ending of the "good ole days". An "Early Bird" with only one PAX onboard (the FO's wife that had her Private License). Nice layover the night before with the whole crew. Takeoff with anyone who wanted to see. Next thing I know the wife gets into her husband's (FO's) seat. Soon anyone who wants to be FO gets to fly (except me the probationary SO). Interesting times back then. Always had fun with Guns and/or Girls onboard. Different times...before the PC crowd shutdown O Clubs and Layovers.

Check 6

There's enough stories about non pilots hand flying airplanes. Even in this thread. And others have witnessed it and seen non pilots do a good job maintaining altitude.

And many of us have hand flown jets at altitude for hours with the a/p MEL'd or when it failed. Or flown airplanes, like the 727, especially the 727-100, which were less stable than the current generation at altitude. The 727-100 felt like it was hunting a bit at altitude. Anyone remember getting Dutch roll training on the newer jets? On the 727 it was part of the training syllabus. I don't know if the 727 was more susceptible to Dutch roll but modern jets are a lot more stable at altitude IMO.

So it's saddening to read about a professional pilot sweating about hand flying at altitude. It's a nuisance to hand fly at altitude but guys need to know they can do it and that it's not that tough (see comment about non pilots flying). Doing it for the first time when the heart rate is already elevated because of another problem might not be the best plan. How much of the high altitude upsets over control issues are related to lack of familiarity with high altitude control sensitivity?

Controlling the plane with the autopilot off is one thing, but no one is cruising around in RVSM airspace without a functional autopilot.

Well yes, but...hand-flying at FL410 with a fully loaded airplane in RVSM airspace (we had plenty of opposite direction traffic at FL400) is just begging for a loss of separation...

Full disclosure: not jumpseating, but F/O for this one. Flying with the captain that everyone avoids for dinner. Small 121 supplemental so I'd flown with him a lot. My GF at the time was a Delta FA.


CPT: "We're friends, right?"
Me: "Sure, Sean"
CPT: "If you had naked pictures of your girlfriend, you'd show them to me, right"
Me: "no"
CPT: "Well, I'd show mine to you."
Me: No answer

10 seconds later, a stack of about 100 pictures lands in my lap. I try to hand them back to no avail - some things cannot be unseen. Still amazed to this day he had them in his jepp bag.

Cargo 727 jumpseat into PHX at 0400 about 5 years ago. Great crew explaining all about the 727. After being given a crossing restriction the CA turns around and asks me "want a leisurely descent or you want to see us unwind this thing?"
I had no idea a plane that size could come out of the sky like that.

i've flown from the west coast to hawaii without an auto pilot in RVSM....rare? sure, but to say it never happens is disingenuous

How is that legal? Never done etops stuff so I don't know those rules.

Not sure who you fly for, but I don't know a single commercial airline whose MEL would allow this. I guess I should have specifically said no airline. Better?

MEL, or enroute failure? Not much choice if it failed over water, might not have the gas at FL280.

I think if it's an MEL, you have to coordinate with ATC in advance to fly in RVSM airspace.

Would it be very hard? No. Annoying maybe.