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Originally Posted by beech2jet
(Post 2468939)
This surprises me, considering Delta doesn’t have Domestic crew meals or middle seat deadhead pay and American doesn’t have a minimum calendar day pay, meaning there are 3 day trips that pay 10 hours and 4 days that pay less than 20. Seems like you’d have to work quite a few more days to make the same money at AA. Does AA have Domestic crew meals (not that they’re anything to write home about). There must be other aspects of UAs contract that fall far behind the others. ALPA put something out at one point with overall contract values that I thought had DL/UA pretty much tied and AA right behind. But of course, that was total monetary value.
You mention middle seat DHD pay. Most AA agents ‘work’ with DHD’s in my experience. So how often (valueable) is that portion of a contract? The guy reviewing the different contracts might have given it a different value than you did. UA’s contract takes 12 years to match AA’s second year vacation value. It lags AA’s vacation hours until the 20th year. UA’s vacation exceeds AA’s after 20 years but it takes until the 33rd for UA’s vacation value to exceed AA’s. DL’s contract hours lag AA’s on an annual basis until the 20th year and equal AA’s total vacation value the 52nd(?) year(early 2017 contract comparison). Maybe it’s all of the details, like the vacation difference, that had the contract SME say he’d choose AA’s contract over UA’s contract (disregarding pay). |
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Originally Posted by Sliceback
(Post 2469062)
I was surprised too. It’s also an opinion but it’s an informed opinion by a union guy who studies contracts.
You mention middle seat DHD pay. Most AA agents ‘work’ with DHD’s in my experience. So how often (valueable) is that portion of a contract? The guy reviewing the different contracts might have given it a different value than you did. UA’s contract takes 12 years to match AA’s second year vacation value. It lags AA’s vacation hours until the 20th year. UA’s vacation exceeds AA’s after 20 years but it takes until the 33rd for UA’s vacation value to exceed AA’s. DL’s contract hours lag AA’s on an annual basis until the 20th year and equal AA’s total vacation value the 52nd(?) year(early 2017 contract comparison). Maybe it’s all of the details, like the vacation difference, that had the contract SME say he’d choose AA’s contract over UA’s contract (disregarding pay). UAL matches AMR at year 5 for days, trails again until it matches at year 11, then exceeds AMR for the rest of ones career. |
Something to consider is total percentage of widebodies. I break widebodies into two categories, large widebody and total widebody. Since AA, DAL and UAL all have 767-300’s and all pay them considerably less then large widebodies, I break them into two separate catagories. 767-300’s and Large Widebody (767-400’s & A330 and bigger).
UAL Mainline Fleet Narrowbody 570 767-300’s 35 Large Widebody 144 Total Widebody 179 Total Fleet 749 Large Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet 19.2% Total Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet 23.9% Pilot size 12,500 American Mainline Fleet Narrowbody 815 767-300 31 Large Widebody 120 Total Widebody 151 Total Fleet 966 Large Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet 12.4% Total Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet 15.6% Pilot size 14,500 So UAL has 2,000 less pilots and more total widebodies and large widebodies. If UAL grows to AA’s size (not saying UAL will) you will benefit from more widebodies and sizable growth. More room for growth on the UAL side that plus more widebodies may yield better return vs slightly higher retirements on AA side. Anyway something else to consider. My source for fleet info. From UAL a union MEC fleet plan emailed out to pilots last Spring. For the AA fleet count the numbers listed on this website under airline profiles. The listing under airline profiles for United shows the 747-400’s (now parked) and only showed 4 777-300’s (currently have 14 and 4 more coming next year), also showed 6 less 787’s then UAL will have in early 18. |
Originally Posted by Larry in TN
(Post 2468986)
The problem with AA's policy is it only works for the first commuter to reserve the jumpseat (is it time or seniority?). UAL's policy works no matter how many other pilots are commuting.
but this is wrong. Our commuter policy is not predicated on having the jumpseat reserved. Just adequately available seats 24 hours prior (which to me is 1, and I’m not sure they’d even check). We can even use an off line carrier as our 1 flight (which they won’t be able to check loads easily for). Also, realize the commuter policy just keeps you out of trouble, we aren’t pay protected. But really, the commuter policy is not what makes commuting at AA better. It’s the ability to book the jumpseat that makes it better. It’s pretty dang close to the equivalent of having a ticket. I don’t even check loads or worry about my commute once I have the seat booked. |
Originally Posted by PRS Guitars
(Post 2469127)
I’m not saying choose AA...
but this is wrong. Our commuter policy is not predicated on having the jumpseat reserved. Just adequately available seats 24 hours prior (which to me is 1, and I’m not sure they’d even check). We can even use an off line carrier as our 1 flight (which they won’t be able to check loads easily for). Also, realize the commuter policy just keeps you out of trouble, we aren’t pay protected. But really, the commuter policy is not what makes commuting at AA better. It’s the ability to book the jumpseat that makes it better. It’s pretty dang close to the equivalent of having a ticket. I don’t even check loads or worry about my commute once I have the seat booked. |
Originally Posted by Grumble
(Post 2469167)
UAL, you don't even need seats on the airplane. Flight can be oversold with 100 nonrevs. As long as you had two flights available you're protected. They don't even need to be UAL airplanes.
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Originally Posted by C11DCA
(Post 2469090)
See the following contract comparison re: vacation days and hours
UAL matches AMR at year 5 for days, trails again until it matches at year 11, then exceeds AMR for the rest of ones career. FedEx, SW, UPS, and Alaska have much better vacation sections. |
And for the OP’s POV we’re just discussing contract details. If IAD and ORD are his projected home bases UA is the clear winner.
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Originally Posted by Sliceback
(Post 2469062)
I was surprised too. It’s also an opinion but it’s an informed opinion by a union guy who studies contracts.
You mention middle seat DHD pay. Most AA agents ‘work’ with DHD’s in my experience. So how often (valueable) is that portion of a contract? The guy reviewing the different contracts might have given it a different value than you did. UA’s contract takes 12 years to match AA’s second year vacation value. It lags AA’s vacation hours until the 20th year. UA’s vacation exceeds AA’s after 20 years but it takes until the 33rd for UA’s vacation value to exceed AA’s. DL’s contract hours lag AA’s on an annual basis until the 20th year and equal AA’s total vacation value the 52nd(?) year(early 2017 contract comparison). Maybe it’s all of the details, like the vacation difference, that had the contract SME say he’d choose AA’s contract over UA’s contract (disregarding pay). |
Originally Posted by Mover
(Post 2469207)
AA's contract is the worst among majors. Your contract expert friend needs to do more homework.
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