Tomct

Is it any wonder that the majority of their list is/are Former Skywst pilots? They are all ready too "belly up to the Kool-Aid" stand and take LOOOOONGG drinks!

Fred Flintstone

Tomct: The list is around 100 now, with about 20 Skywest or other RJ drivers as F/Os. I wouldn't call that a majority. Most come from other LCCs and Legacy carriers. Most with at least a 10 year ALPA pin at home and very well aware of ALPA's role in opposing VA.

Farnuts: Do you have a source for your first post? It is not in the public ALPA news pages. Thanks in advance.

My opinion: ALPA has done great things on the local representative level and in in safety, legal and medical on a national level. Unfortunately, the national level internal political structure is not conducive to attracting small and/or non legacy related pilot groups.

Admin: Should this thread be moved to "Upstart"?

fireman0174

There's virtually nothing in your post I disagree with, however the problem being who is willing to fall on their swords? The last one I can recall are the rEAL pilots.

Using my ex-airline, the UAL-MEC was unwilling to test the waters. IMO it's interesting that the last two MEC Chairman at UAL came from airlines that went chapter 11 - Air Florida and Eastern.

The net effect is that their highly concessionary contract is not amendable until 2009. It's my understanding it would have been either 2007 or 2008 had they rejected the last "offering". Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this point.

2009 is an interesting date for UAL in that all labor agreements expire that year. I've also been told that's the same time frame that the reduced $ leases, achieved in court, on their fleet expires and "snap backs" to the old figures. Anyone know if that's true?

Eric Stratton

[QUOTE=Fred Flintstone;171781]Tomct: The list is around 100 now, with about 20 Skywest or other RJ drivers as F/Os. I wouldn't call that a majority. Most come from other LCCs and Legacy carriers. Most with at least a 10 year ALPA pin at home and very well aware of ALPA's role in opposing VA.

Farnuts: Do you have a source for your first post? It is not in the public ALPA news pages. Thanks in advance.

My opinion: ALPA has done great things on the local representative level and in in safety, legal and medical on a national level. Unfortunately, the national level internal political structure is not conducive to attracting small and/or non legacy related pilot groups.

Admin: Should this thread be moved to "Upstart"?[/QUOTE]

OMG does it really bother you that much...

Fred Flintstone

No Eric, It doesn't bother me at all, and thanks for asking.

I see a bias on this board. Threads bashing startups appear to come up on the majors board and stay there. Threads asking for info or that are promoting startups get opened on or quickly moved to the upstart board. I'm just asking the admins to be consistent. I do realize this is a holiday weekend and the admin may be out flying, but we are into page 3 with the name of an upstart in the title.

I try to make my posts a value added addition to the discussion. Some things I know, some things I am trying to get info on.

farnuts

And a National Seniority List?

Saabstory

Kinda funny that everyone's got their shorts in a twist over this. Every guy on my block says that's how it works in their job; bankers, sales reps, lawyers, accountants, IT guys, & on & on. Pilots are a odd bunch...I guess they're "special".

Sanchez

A banker, sales rep, lawyer, accountant, and/or IT guy does not have the lives of many in their hands day in and day out; nor do they spend a third of their lives away from home, nor are they subject to annual/biannual health and skill evaluations. Yeah we are different from every profession, you're clearly not a 121 pilot.

In the 121 environment you earn your right to the left seat through skill and experience. Seniority assures time and experience, the feds and training department at your respective airline assures skill.

I'll tell you what Saabstory, go to your local airport and talk to a few airline pilots, particularly some of the older guys that have seen it all, and see how they feel about merit upgrade. You should qualify your remarks before you speak of that which you don't know anything about.

Saabstory

I'm not trying to bust any nuts & I know I'm not going to get any agreement here, but I think the first sentence kinda makes my point....skill & experience. I just don't believe that skill & experience has to be at that specific company. Maybe that skill & experience was acquired elsewhere, before a BK, furlough, etc. You know, maybe I'm thinking more along the lines of a Natl. list. I guess I just don't always see the second sentence as holding true in all cases. You're right though...seniority does assure that you were hired a day before someone else at that specific property. Is it an "unconventional" approach that they're talking about...no doubt. Is it "crazy"...I don't think so. Just try to get beyond the "that's the way we've always done it" thinking & you might see it has a future, like it or not. I don't think it's a bad idea to be promoted/paid according to past & current performance, but I agree with you, this policy will face an uphill battle. Not trying to pick a fight, just playing devils advocate. An unyielding, emotional defense of traditional seniority is kinda like saying the Cav's never shoulda let James start...I mean they've got 13 year veterans sittin' the bench...what's up with that? Take care.

skybolt

Saabstory,

How can you advocate a merit based upgrade on one hand and then advocate a seniority based national seniority list on the other?

Seniority is the way that "we've always done it" because our forefathers were pretty darned intelligent men. If you think about it, every pilot must perform up to a level of safety required by the US Government, so every one of us is equally qualified. Next, our industry can't use us individually - they have to integrate our work into the work of the next/last crew - meaning that our output is dependent on the next/last crew. A banker or sales rep is able to produce work that is entirely his own, a pilot can't. I may be the best pilot in the world, but I can't maintain schedule if the inbound aircraft was four hours late. Finally, a merit based upgrade/evaluation system would lead to a "favoritism" system. A favoritism system would lead to a bunch of "tail kissers" who never work a weekend or holiday and who make double the money of a person with some principle. Do you really want to work in a business where you get passed over for upgrade because another pilot pushed weather and flew broke airplanes and did a better job of keeping the boss happy than did you as you followed the rules?

BTW, if you think a national seniority list will ever happen outside of government mandate, I would ask you to spend some time learning about the Cactus/Airways seniority integration. Could you imagine that on a national scale? The move toward a national list would be a WAR. I can think a of a few ways to attempt such a list, but I can't think of one single way to get more than myself to sign off on it. NO ONE will agree to such a list if they think that they were harmed and I can guarantee you that at least 50% of the pilots will feel that they got royally hosed.