jetlaggy

IPA is happy...no divorce necessary

Merle Haggard

Running to join ALPA as soon as you start to believe you could legitimately be parted out or merged in order to be an "insider" regarding ALPA merger policy. Disingenuous and underhanded. I haven't paid 20 years of ALPA dues to have them take in 15,000 pilots and work on integrating any of them around or above me six months after they join.

I might also add that APA overtly "hinted" that selling out the TWA pilots would make them consider switching their allegiances to ALPA. That was a BIG part of ALPA rolling over on the TWA guys. ALPA got sucker punched on that one.

acecrackshot

Agreed.

APA can come back to ALPA contingent on APA members getting stapled and back dating all of the TWA guys still on property to their original TWA DOR.

FXLAX

Are you saying that the APA pilots would be more able to convince three arbitrators on their argument for SLI using ALPA merger policy than they would be without being constrained to stay within ALPA merger policy when making their arguments to the panel? Nothing would stop them from using ALPA merger policy in crafting their argument even if they stayed APA. They don’t need the APA to merge into ALPA to use any methodology when crating any SLI. They are more free as an independent than as an ALPA carrier.

tnkrdrvr

Cant see that happening. ALPA has a terrible reputation among guys who have experienced it prior to coming here.

guppie

But then there's Bond/McCaskill. Enacted after the AAL-TWA merger. Signed into law in 2007. Internal union policy is used if the two carriers are both the same union. Allegheny-Mohawk LPP if they are not.

https://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/...l-bond-statute

FXLAX

Everyone who has come from a ALPA regional pretty much all say this as well. The truth is that each carrier is unique in its employee/labor relations and profitability. Those things have more to do with how pilots’ experiences are at their previous airline than anything else. Also, pilots don’t really understand the ALPA structure where each airline MEC is independent when it comes to local contract and general labor relation matters. So you are probably right. But once you are at one of the big 6, it’s also about strength in numbers when it comes to affecting policy at the government level.

cadetdrivr

Correct.

Unless both airlines are the same union then McCaskill/Bond applies.

However, there are some loopholes in McCaskill/Bond not present in ALPA merger policy. (re: ask an AirTran veteran about SWA's "plan B" scenario....)

tnkrdrvr

Well...we have more than a few refugees from Delta and United. The IPA president is the best union rep ever to have flown for American (obviously APA represented, funny how he never went back). If there is one thing my friends at ALPA carriers agree on, it is that their ALPA representatives tend to be disconnected from reality on the line. Pile on higher dues for a demonstrated track record of lesser returns and it’s tough to see the attraction. That said, every pilot group gets the representation they voted for. An engaged pilot group will be represented by smart, motivated leadership that will maximize gains and minimize losses. In my view, ALPA’s size only contributes to a largely apathetic pilot group. I can call my union president tonight to pass on my gripes and he will listen. Can you?

FXLAX

Yes, I can. And thats not only because he happens to have worked for the same airline I currently do. I’ve had the ability, and have, talked to past presidents going back to Prater. But the fact you mentioned size as a deterrent just proved the point I was making about the misconception of the ALPA structure. Unless I was wanting to talk to the president about some proposed regulation, law, or policy, I wouldn’t call him to talk about a grievance issue at my airline. For that, I call my rep, a committee chair, or even the mec chairman. And like you alluded, individual reps are as varied as barbers or doctors. Some are better than others. The lessor ones tend to lose re-election or get recalled. But that has nothing to do with IPA, APA, or ALPA. Each has their bad apples. That’s just a human nature thing. As for dues, my dues have done nothing than gone down a couple of times in the last few years. Probably because as ALPA gets more strength in numbers, you can have a lower dues rate than you could otherwise. I would guess that with all pilot groups under one union (any one), the dues could be lower than 1%.

I’m not trying to convince anyone. Just pointing out some of the misconceptions that seem to sour pilots on ALPA. I understand this is all academic and I don’t expect any union to merge with another unless they see the benefit of being ALPA or not being their current union. And other than supposedly APA, that doesn’t seem to be the case.

By the way, we have refugees from AA, UA, DL, SWA, and UPS. But as far as I know, they came and stayed because of the company, not the union. I suspect the same at UPS.