Downfall the case against Boeing
 

Netflix documentary- Downfall

Sad to see what’s become of Boeing.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...eing?_amp=true

I thought it was a good production, that show. I left my "pro-Boeing" bias at the door.

The fact that bean counters started to influence things versus the engineers, and ruined a formerly great company, is widely known. The move to Chicago did not help.

Well, they sure left a few key details out.

Didn’t the AOA fail on the previous flight or something of that nature? And it was pencil whipped and put back into service on one of those flights?

it failed on 3 previous flights. All those crews handled the emergency just fine.

on the last second flight yes. It was replaced with a counterfeit part and pencil whipped. Failed when crew took off. They disable the stick shaker and flew from Bali to Jakarta with the stab cutout switched off. Then only wrote up the unreliable airspeed, not the AOA issue. Plane crashed the next morning.

they also forgot to mention the Ethiopian crew turn the stab trim switches back on to try and engage the autopilot.

they also forgot to mention the FAA retained certification for MCAS. They did now about the expanded envelope and that was in the DOJ report.

They got the merger stuff right but we’re wrong about the anything about the MAX. MCAS was about certification flights. Stick force per G. It was not to push the nose down like the media loves to say.

I’m not doubting you, but where did you find that information?
I’d like to have it when I talk the folks who only watch cable news.

Bull. It was FBW logic design error. Speed taped with a bulletin. Didn't work. Remind me, how much did Bluto walk out the door in severance?

Anyone seen the Boeing/ 787 documentary from years ago on Al Jazeera America?

It's definitely worth a watch. They go do into how the company went from being run by engineers to bean counters and the shift in focus from quality product to stock price.

And it included undercover camera of guys in the S. Carolina factory admiting they had no idea what they were doing while on the assembly line.

They should have mentioned that Boeing offered a rebate of 1 million per airframe to Southwest if sim training for MAX was required.

it’s buried in the Lion Air Accident report. Mentions the Captain in Bali talking to maintenance about the previous write ups. Specially asked what they did differ this time. Maintenance said the replaced the AOA vane. You have to read the original report.

the stuff about the FAA is in the DOJ report and buried in the 2 congressional reports. If you take the time to comb through the hundreds of pages it is there.

Yes. IMO BCA's fundamental failure here was that they forgot who they were selling airplanes to.

Airbus OTH has always had a very good understanding of who and how would operate their planes.

I think that's clearly part of it, now. No one did this intentionally, important for a non-kerosene soaked reader to understand. Augmented flight, IMHO software overriding pilot flight control commands via sensor signals, is FBW regardless how the stab or any another control surface is mechanically actuated. Eliminating the burden of oversight in airframe prime operations means board level decision making doesn't get to just stomp production, engineering judgement into submission. As boss Mulally was quoted as saying something like; "making airliners, you can't afford to screw around." Amen.

And thank you:)

The politicians pointing fingers really ****ed me off. All of them guilty of subsidizing Boeing’s decline by continually bailing them out instead of forcing them to compete. That is the root cause of the disease that is killing Boeing. No amount of regulation or oversight is gonna fix that. Only the invisible hand of the free market will.

correct 200%

i think you are confusing Boeing with the Airlines. Boeing did not receive bailout money. They were offered it but declined.

I got through part of the trailer. And it just looked like an "evil capitalist, government good" propaganda film.

Boeing gets subsidies from the government in many other ways... Export-Import Bank for instance, and of course DoD contracts.

https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/boeing

and

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coron...outputType=amp

Exactly.

Not to mention when the US placed massive tariff on the then CS100/300, an aircraft range/size class Boeing had given up on.

Or the whole tanker A330/B767 debacle. Again, government protectionist policies ruin companies by removing the financial incentive to innovate and build the best product. If you build a good product, it sells itself.

That is the root of the problem. Boeing’s management style and decline is a symptom of the disease, not the cause. Just look at the auto industry in the US to see where Boeing will end up if it continues. Constant bail outs and worse products. 🤦‍♂️

If I recall correctly it was a AOA unit which had not been calibrated (correctly).

yes, they are supposed to come calibrated and a check it required after installation. Neither was done. After the Bali flight the Captain didn’t bother to write up the AOA issue. Only the AS Disagree. So no one checked the AOA vane.

the point is while Boeing has an issue with how MCAS could malfunction, the aircraft was not un-flyable like the show describes.

that info is out of date. Many of the state awards have been canceled at Boeing request after AB lost many of theirs. Guess you think Airbus is the only manufacturer that should receive these so called bailouts. How much has Airbus had to pay for their bribery scandal? If they are so clean what was the purpose of all the bribery? All these companies and Governments are corrupted and keep each other paid.

Why don’t you try to fix it.

try watching the movie “Dark Waters” if you want to see real corruption.

You claimed boeing didn’t take bailouts. I provided evidence to the contrary. Can you show me where I mentioned Airbus or where I said anybody else was clean?

It appears to be happening now.

But since BCA is such a large exporter (#1, at least pre-Max), it's probably worth trying to lead-turn the market forces.


And yes both BCA and AB have enjoyed a large variety of generous subsidies over the years, and have also been suing each other over that for years.

It was supplied by a Miami 36th street junk dealer, with falsified paperwork.

I blame it on the high bypass turbofans: The '73 was designed for straight pipes and has been fudged (quite successfully) since the Classic series. But these LEAP engines gave Airbus a HUGE advantage because there was room under the 320 wings for 'em. Those big-ass fans. The "-1B" engines themselves are a compromise vs the "-1A" -- (9:1 vs 11:1 bypass ratio).

The icing on the cake was the constraint that the MAX must be common type -- at all cost: clean sheet was not an option because of development time and another $10B or so in costs.

The huge enabler? The FAA delegating verification of certification requirements to Boeing. The hen guarding the foxhouse.

Yes, AB had an advantage with the longer legs on the 320, that was an accident of history. Or the natural progression to larger bypass and fan diameters.

737 does has an accidental advantage in that the fuselage is narrower, so less weight and form drag and better inherent efficiency. But it's easier for AB to use higher-bypass motors.

I think what is missing in this picture is that Boeing purposely hid this system as far as pilot training and understanding of it to save money for the operators and in the end, Boeing.
It gave the crews who encountered a problem nothing to work with or understand in order to deal with it. A highly experienced crew may have been able to handle it it just fine, but that is not the smart or safe way to handle a new aircraft.
This is a huge problem because the bean counters have too much influence in their operations.

The single point of failure with only one AOA was criminally cheap of them

Key and Critical instrumentation and Equipment need to be redundant. Commercial airplanes have two engines for this very reason.

A sub-mode of the Speed Trim System is not Critical instrumentation or Equipment because malfunctions were not rated greater than hazardous by the FAA.

Yes, the FAA determines that. The 737 MAX was certified compliant and airworthy by the FAA.

For those that think Boeing self certifies look at you pilot license. Is it issued by your airline or the FAA? Oh, the FAA, but it was an airline employee DPE that gave me my check!!! Would love for someone to explain to me how Designated Engineering Representatives at Boeing are falsifying data that is recorded on an instrumented airplane? That data is sent to the FAA for final review. Flight test data is flight test data. The FAA is still the final signature even though they don't always do the flights. Many of the flights their pilots are not qualified to do. But guess what flights they did do? All the ones certifying MCAS. Something the FAA has so far been able to keep quiet.

It wasn't, and there was much to learn in it with respect to Boeing INTENTIONALLY hiding the risks and presence of MCAS, as well as the fact they KNEW internally that the system required additional pilot training (or a fatal crash was all but certain) and still decided not to recommend that training, much less acknowledge the existence of the system itself.

The IRONY of avoiding a documentary for the reasons you state all the while being unable to see the massive risks present in the real life scenario that is more or less the inverse of what you abhor. This is a glaring example of unfettered capitalism and outright missing government regulation.

Does the documentary equally blame the government for putting Boeing in this position in the first place and also for not following up on the regulatory side?

So you agree there should be more regulatory oversight, stop the whole Designee Program and have a bigger federal budget to make that happen? If so, I completely agree with you.

Sonic is getting rusty. He hasn't found a way to blame unions yet. :p

If not for those darned regulations, Boeing would have complied with the regulations

No, but the government is clearly causing problems here with it's half-way regulation system.

if only Boeing could get the boot off their neck so they could make a safe airplane

Yeah, I’m going to hazard a guess. Your party is more responsible for that than my party.

Both political parties are generally at fault, and equally too.