Barney1

Hi All
I just got hired to both JetBlue and AirTran, and am trying to decide between the two. I have tried to look at several factors to compare. Can I please get your thoughts?
First, the pay seems to be fairly equal. JB beats out AirTran over a 10 year period mainly because it pays overtime after 70 hours. However, I suspect that a new AirTran contract will equalize the pay.
Second, AT has more flights (700 vs 550) with approximately the same number of aircraft and seats, but JB maintains a higher load factor than AirTran.
Third, JB is also expanding internationally, having just announced FLL to Bogota, Columbia, plus several Caribbean destinations, while AT has no int'l presence. Does this make JB more diversified?
Fourth, JB has already expanded to 4 domiciles and 2 coasts, while AT has yet to expand out of Atlanta. AT does fly to both coasts, plus the midwest, but flies mostly from east coast airports. Does this make AT more efficient, or JB better positioned?
Fifth, commute -- how important is commute in the grand scheme? If commute were primary, I would choose AirTran, as they fly out of my nearest city, but JB does not.
Finally, Culture -- JB seems to have an outstanding culture. I am not worried about the non-union aspect. After talking with several JB employees, I am confident that their management talks out their differences with the aircrew. Could this change? Of course, but the relationship they currently have seems positive. AirTran seems to have a good culture, as well, though I am watching the current pilot TA and union representation events with interest. Can someone from AirTran give me their perspective on the culture and relationship with management?
I am a newbie to the airlines, coming from the Air Force. I appreciate all your help with this!
Barney

ryane946

Sorry I don't have enough time to answer all of your questions with a lot of detail.


What I can say is AirTran is better than JetBlue. Hands down. Take a look at the EMB-190 payscale. It is horrific. Then take a look at JetBlue's A320 payscale and compare that to AirTran's pay scale, and it is still much less. AirTran is a better choice today. They are more stable. They are growing faster than JetBlue. And they are a better company.

AirTran is in contract negotiations and they are fighting for a much better contract. They recently had a TA that would have increased the top of the payscale to $180/hr. And the membership voted it down. Not only did pilots fiercly oppose the TA, they recalled much of the union leadership for even thinking of agreeing to such a bad TA. Things at AirTran are going to get good. They are better than JetBlue is right now, and it will only get better once they get a new contract.

CRFguy

As much as I dislike JB, I'd go with it.

We have made some good operational changes in the past 6 months. While we're still subpar when it comes to planning, I do believe we've made a step in the right direction. I'm still scared for what may happen this winter, but we'll just have to see what happens.

Reserve sucks, JFK is a nightmare, and our current terminal is an embarrassment to air travel.

I'm glad I made the 320, I wouldn't place that much emphasis on the new int'l flights. Most here would like to see the dots connected on the West prior to expanding to a high risk market.

I still think JB is a more stable place to be rather than AirTran.

You just need to look at JB as a stepping stone. Avoid the kool-aid that will be shoved down you throat, and get your stuff in somewhere else in a year or two.

newKnow

Do they still have 5 year contracts for pilots at Jet Blue? If so, there's your answer.

L'il J.Seinfeld

Hands down Air Tran. Just look at what CRFGuy posted.

"You just need to look at JB as a stepping stone. Avoid the kool-aid that will be shoved down you throat, and get your stuff in somewhere else in a year or two."

Air Tran could be your career airline while JB is having a substantial amount leave. I would also not underestimate the value of the union at Air Tran. It sounds as if the Air Tran pilots have a lot of gumption in voting down the TA and that could be a great thing for you in the future.

Bill Lumberg

If given the choice between those two options I would select Air Tran. Seems like JB is trying to be the Wal-Mart of the airline biz. I know some people at JB and they are underwhelmed by the cost-cutting and interest in being followers vs. leaders in terms of compensation, benefits, etc.

JB is very slow-moving in terms of upgrade as well. I have heard that JB sells itself well in terms of gung-ho coporate culture, but reality sets in after you get there. The fact that CRFguy starts his post by saying, "As much as I dislike JB..." says it all. He also suggest you view JB as a stepping stone - is that what you want or do you want to find a L-T opportunity?

I say select one (I would pick AT if living in Atlanta was acceptable) and then put my stuff in with Delta, CAL, UAL and Netjets and hope for one of those. In my opinion, Delta is the best opportunity out there if you can get an interview - and I know they like military pilots...

Joeshmoe

Just a few questions that could have a major impact on the future of JB......

From what I've heard from some JB pilots you are losing money BEFORE you've actually had to start paying for assets (320's). Is this true?

Aren't the 320's coming up on their very costly level D checks?

Are the 190's still far behind on software upgrades?

greedyairlineexec

Contrary to popular belief JB has always paid for the 320's the same way UAL and NWA pay for theirs. JB , since it start, put a big down payment and order a lot of airplanes to get a good price. After 9/11, when orders for Airbus drop, JB went back and renegotiated even better terms for the upcoming orders. But they have always paid for their planes.

A perk of Airbus if a maintanance warranty, like your car. Every operator gets it, not just JB. Because of the large down payment , the good price, and the explosive secondary A320 market, JB has been able to sell older airframes before the maintenance warranty expired and roll the money over to purchase more airframes on a more than 1-1 ratio. That is not something that JB invented, is something all the airlines in the world than own newer airframes do ( Singapore, British, South African, Quantas, Iberia...). That way you can keep a younger fleet as a more valuable asset on the books and eliminate future liabilities.

The Airbus Heavy checks and other yearly maintenance cost once the plane is out of warranty are higher than boeing's, but that is something accounted for on the initial lower price, the years of warranty and the lower fuel burn.

JB has done heavy checks already and is flying out of warranty planes and it will still make money this quarter as well as for the year ( banning some other valentines day massacre).

The 190's are doing good with all the software and hardware upgrades and their reliability & daily use is on par with the bus. How much those 190 issues cost? probably a lot, but I assume JB's lawyers got a good deal for the company and we might get some extra heavily discounted 190's for a while...

The company is supposed to announce their 5 year plan sometime in October after some consulting firm did a study for a few months. I assume that will be announce on October 23 or so.

JB is not a career airline, it never was , it might become one. If the 5 year plan does not include massive west coast expansion don't come here.

The pilot morale is pretty much **** unless you are a +5 year bus captain or a USAIR guy ( don't know how bad it was there,it must have been bad for all those guys to be so happy here ).

I don't consider Airtran or JB career places, but Airtran at least will have a contract soon and once the union issues are solved, a strong union leadership too. Airtrans management, while they sound like real *******s, seem to understand that they are max out out eats and need to go west/midwest. that is a good sign.

tough call.

Fins Up

I'm a JB A320 FO. Been here about 1.5 years. I'm really enjoying the job. I don't feel 100% confident in our future, BUT I wouldn't really say that of any airline except maybe SWA. Even though the legacies are making money, you just can't tell what's down the road.
I wouldn't say pilot morale is in the toilet. Maybe I'm just flying with a happy group of guys. I don't planning on going anywhere else though.
As far as the union thing, I'm not too worried about that. There is a pretty significant "poison pill" in our contract that would make a buyout more difficult. Still I wouldn't be surprised to see a JBPA type of thing within the next few years. I don't see ALPA ever making it on property due to lots of bad experiences with them - not just the USAir folks either.
My predictions for our future are:
1. Significant expansion in the Caribbean
2. E-190's on the West Coast in the next year or two.
3. More work from the coasts inward - slowly though.
4. Staying in the black. Once all us airlines that we actually have to charge people a little more to fly them around the country, this shouldn't be too hard.
5. A-330's by 2010. Haha.
I'll take slow and steady expansion over getting ahead of ourselves anyday.
I don't know a whole about about AT except they weren't too happy with their TA. Tough call either way. And I'm just a bluejuice drinker so don't believe a thing I say or even type.

hair-on-fire

Huh? They've been working on a new contract for 4 years and don't have one yet, plus they just threw out their whole union leadership, and you really think they will "have a contract soon and......a strong union leadership"?

Quite a leap, isn't it?