New APA resolution may reduce back dues
11-11-2007 | 08:02 AM
#12
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
AA,
Well there's the pot calling the kettle black!!! I guess we're back to the old discussion. You act selfishly, taking jobs and putting dues paying union members on the street. The APA hypocrisy continues unabated and unmatched in the industry. Do you think that after you put me on the street, endangering my family and forcing me across the country and almost overseas to find work that any of your threats are worrisome? Don't threaten me and don't try to speak for me. Taking my job back is not scabbing. You reap what you sow. You would never stand with anyone else in the industry who needed support because it is all about you. For you to come on this forum and call for unity is the the epitome of hypocrisy. The B scale, Reno Air, TWA, the unbridled sense of entitlement. What else can I say? When the rest of the industry discovers how you operate, I'm hoping that you can see some payback.
LTD
PS I am happy. I get to showcase the hypocrisy of the APA message and actions. It's really the little things in life.
Well there's the pot calling the kettle black!!! I guess we're back to the old discussion. You act selfishly, taking jobs and putting dues paying union members on the street. The APA hypocrisy continues unabated and unmatched in the industry. Do you think that after you put me on the street, endangering my family and forcing me across the country and almost overseas to find work that any of your threats are worrisome? Don't threaten me and don't try to speak for me. Taking my job back is not scabbing. You reap what you sow. You would never stand with anyone else in the industry who needed support because it is all about you. For you to come on this forum and call for unity is the the epitome of hypocrisy. The B scale, Reno Air, TWA, the unbridled sense of entitlement. What else can I say? When the rest of the industry discovers how you operate, I'm hoping that you can see some payback.
LTD
PS I am happy. I get to showcase the hypocrisy of the APA message and actions. It's really the little things in life.
11-11-2007 | 08:48 AM
#13
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,949
Likes: 9
Riiight... you accuse me of hypocrisy... yet you will come back to AA and work under a contract that was provided to you by hardworking APA members but yet you refuse to join. Whaddaya call that, huh? I call it freeloading, not too far removed from scabbing, and the ULTIMATE in hypocrisy.
So, answer the question... will you cross?
I think I know the answer.
So if you're so ticked off at AA/APA, why you comin' back, Hoss? "Oh, uhh, well, gee, it's a good airline job that is gonna pay pretty well with the new contract." Yeah, my point exactly.
Go fly a kite. I used to sympathize with your situation but you are quickly becoming a "get something for nothing" type.
73
So, answer the question... will you cross?
I think I know the answer.
So if you're so ticked off at AA/APA, why you comin' back, Hoss? "Oh, uhh, well, gee, it's a good airline job that is gonna pay pretty well with the new contract." Yeah, my point exactly.
Go fly a kite. I used to sympathize with your situation but you are quickly becoming a "get something for nothing" type.
73
11-11-2007 | 11:09 AM
#14
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
AA,
I'm not coming back. I found a job where I respect the pilots because they deserve it by acting with integrity, something you and the APA know nothing about.
Is it scabbing if you are reclaiming your job from a scab who stole it in the first place? I'm glad I'm not a "member" of that group that you refer to above.
LTD
I knew I could get you all worked up.
I'm not coming back. I found a job where I respect the pilots because they deserve it by acting with integrity, something you and the APA know nothing about.
Is it scabbing if you are reclaiming your job from a scab who stole it in the first place? I'm glad I'm not a "member" of that group that you refer to above.
LTD
I knew I could get you all worked up.
11-11-2007 | 11:50 AM
#15
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,949
Likes: 9
Oh, you know it, I am worked up.... IN fact I am shedding tears over the fact you will not be gracing our pilot group with your return. Not.
Integrity is a double edged sword my friend. The very people you accuse of having no integrity are the ones restoring the profession you belong to. Your welcome.
Enjoy your career, I hope you don't die a bitter old man.
73
Integrity is a double edged sword my friend. The very people you accuse of having no integrity are the ones restoring the profession you belong to. Your welcome.
Enjoy your career, I hope you don't die a bitter old man.
73
11-11-2007 | 12:36 PM
#16
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 62
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AA
I'll make you a deal. Stop posting incorrect info like you (the APA) are pushing for a big raise in part to help the rest of the industry, or that you're ready to stand together with other union members, or like the line in this thread, "New APA resolution may reduce back dues" which, while not technically untrue, is at least a bait and switch idea. If you do this, I'll stop calling you on your posts.
The things we can agree on are:
The AA pilots have given back things from earlier contractual gains.
The management of AA has used their position to reap
unwarrented gains on the backs of the employees.
The pilots of AA should get, and will get gains in QOL and
pay in these negotiations.
Where we disagree is about the bedrock of the APA and their leadership. I look upon your group as a very self-centered, petty group willing to sell out the rest of the industry, or as in the case of the "B" scale, their own newer members.
I know that you believe that the "remove Supp CC" part of Capt. Hill's campaign platform was just wind to appease the radicals in the APA. The problem is that he used it, and it goes to show his mindset, in our minds about how we as former TWA pilots are viewed by the AA pilots as a whole. You are making an effort to change that and to bridge the gap, and for that you deserve accolades. My problem is that I'm bitter, I need to get over it. I just see no redeeming social qualities in the APA and feel that attitude needs to change before you can say you are working for the greater good.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I see that you responded while I was writing this so I'll respond here.
You are not restoring anything in the industry. Period. You are engaged with your "unon" leadership in a purely selfish act to grab as much of the lost contractual gains that you can. For yourselves. There is no overriding greater good in your move. Good luck, really. The former TWA pilots that are along for the ride, members or not, deserve whatever you can get for them after what was taken from them over the last six years. I guess that I'd point to the flip flop on agency shop that the APA did in 2002 to show that they are not on strong moral ground here. A moral group would not need to force support, which by the way is what the APA line was before the change to force payment, if not membership. Yes, ALPA does the same but I know of at least one group that grandfathered non members so they still pay nothing after agency shop. I'm not defending ALPA national, they are just as complicit in all of this as the APA. I also don't want to work without a union, I have friends (yes it's true) at non-union carriers and they all are working with substandard work rules and pay, IMHO. I guess I'm hoping for that elusive union ideal where all the workers actuall work for the greater good instead of protecting themselves and ellicit the " it doesn't affect me, so I don't care about it", along with the "I got mine", attitude. Show me that at the APA, and I'll support you.
LTD
Former grievence committee member
Working toward the Ideal, Hoping you are too.
I'll make you a deal. Stop posting incorrect info like you (the APA) are pushing for a big raise in part to help the rest of the industry, or that you're ready to stand together with other union members, or like the line in this thread, "New APA resolution may reduce back dues" which, while not technically untrue, is at least a bait and switch idea. If you do this, I'll stop calling you on your posts.
The things we can agree on are:
The AA pilots have given back things from earlier contractual gains.
The management of AA has used their position to reap
unwarrented gains on the backs of the employees.
The pilots of AA should get, and will get gains in QOL and
pay in these negotiations.
Where we disagree is about the bedrock of the APA and their leadership. I look upon your group as a very self-centered, petty group willing to sell out the rest of the industry, or as in the case of the "B" scale, their own newer members.
I know that you believe that the "remove Supp CC" part of Capt. Hill's campaign platform was just wind to appease the radicals in the APA. The problem is that he used it, and it goes to show his mindset, in our minds about how we as former TWA pilots are viewed by the AA pilots as a whole. You are making an effort to change that and to bridge the gap, and for that you deserve accolades. My problem is that I'm bitter, I need to get over it. I just see no redeeming social qualities in the APA and feel that attitude needs to change before you can say you are working for the greater good.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I see that you responded while I was writing this so I'll respond here.
You are not restoring anything in the industry. Period. You are engaged with your "unon" leadership in a purely selfish act to grab as much of the lost contractual gains that you can. For yourselves. There is no overriding greater good in your move. Good luck, really. The former TWA pilots that are along for the ride, members or not, deserve whatever you can get for them after what was taken from them over the last six years. I guess that I'd point to the flip flop on agency shop that the APA did in 2002 to show that they are not on strong moral ground here. A moral group would not need to force support, which by the way is what the APA line was before the change to force payment, if not membership. Yes, ALPA does the same but I know of at least one group that grandfathered non members so they still pay nothing after agency shop. I'm not defending ALPA national, they are just as complicit in all of this as the APA. I also don't want to work without a union, I have friends (yes it's true) at non-union carriers and they all are working with substandard work rules and pay, IMHO. I guess I'm hoping for that elusive union ideal where all the workers actuall work for the greater good instead of protecting themselves and ellicit the " it doesn't affect me, so I don't care about it", along with the "I got mine", attitude. Show me that at the APA, and I'll support you.
LTD
Former grievence committee member
Working toward the Ideal, Hoping you are too.
11-11-2007 | 01:52 PM
#17
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,949
Likes: 9
LTD,
Congrats on a well written, concise post. When you actually put your bitterness aside and bring forth logical, factual stuff, I can talk to you all day.
I agree on almost everything you've mentioned, including your view of "immoral conduct" by the APA. Let me explain. I was a harsh critic of APA when I signed on as a new hire here, having been well read on airline history and labor. Specifically, APA's "eat their young" approach has been around for decades, especially with their most famous blunder, the B scale. Other blunders include Ed White's famous quotes to your group ,as well as to our own... "We're only making changes to the A-fund to benefit the top 1000 pilots at AA.." You see, we dislilke him as much as you do.
As the years went on, I gradually saw a pattern shift, if you will, within the APA. As we continued to take concessions up the #$%, the whole membership became much more radical and united, which is what we have today. Now add in a new leadership that is promising to deliver on what we want, and you can see that we are all singing the same song.
Does this song, if it's delivered, benefit the industry? You bet. That's where I disagree with your statement, "You are not restoring anything in the industry. Period. You are engaged with your "unon" leadership in a purely selfish act to grab as much of the lost contractual gains that you can. For yourselves. There is no overriding greater good in your move." You see, when we secure an industry leading contract, other pilot groups will have something worthwhile to shoot for. UAL did it, followed by DL... unfortunately, 9/11 hit and it all collapsed. We are trying to do what they did. I think we'll succeed.
Along with this "united force" within the APA comes the drive to engage everyone on, and off, the property. That NEVER existed at AA. Now, it does, because the truth is, we are all AA pilots that will work under a much-improved contract for the same airline - regardless of our backgrounds. That's why DG introduced the resolution to ease the back payments (sorry if I mislabelled it.) That's why APA is pushing for LOS for ALL furloughees. If I'm not mistaken, I don't see any labelling of ex TWA or ex Reno or whatever (I'm ex ACA.)
The fact that you won't come back to AA certainly influences your bitterness and your dim view of the APA - that we're just in it for ourselves. The truth is, if you WERE coming back, I think you'd be a lot more supportive of the fact that we're fighting the good fight. For us and for the industry. For example, UAL ALPA and APA had a couple of picket events together and we praise one another on the progress we're making. That's because we are all in this industry together. There is no "my airline/union is better than yours" nonsense. This is the good fight against corrupt management. THAT is the union ideal you, and everyone, should be looking for.
I supported a full dues amnesty for TWA pilots but like I said, the politics involved with changing the constitution for a specific group are beyond me. If that's what you're waiting for to get closure, you'll probably be waiting forever. But like I said, if you were taking a recall here, you'd probably have a much bigger vested interest in our fight against management. Since you're not, it's probably pretty easy to take pot shots against us.
Finally - I don't believe I've posted any incorrect info that may be misinterpreted by you as *opinion*.... which may certainly not sit well... but I always try and post factual stuff. I've been wrong before. But I believe you are not agreeing with my opinion and that's fine.
73
Congrats on a well written, concise post. When you actually put your bitterness aside and bring forth logical, factual stuff, I can talk to you all day.
I agree on almost everything you've mentioned, including your view of "immoral conduct" by the APA. Let me explain. I was a harsh critic of APA when I signed on as a new hire here, having been well read on airline history and labor. Specifically, APA's "eat their young" approach has been around for decades, especially with their most famous blunder, the B scale. Other blunders include Ed White's famous quotes to your group ,as well as to our own... "We're only making changes to the A-fund to benefit the top 1000 pilots at AA.." You see, we dislilke him as much as you do.
As the years went on, I gradually saw a pattern shift, if you will, within the APA. As we continued to take concessions up the #$%, the whole membership became much more radical and united, which is what we have today. Now add in a new leadership that is promising to deliver on what we want, and you can see that we are all singing the same song.
Does this song, if it's delivered, benefit the industry? You bet. That's where I disagree with your statement, "You are not restoring anything in the industry. Period. You are engaged with your "unon" leadership in a purely selfish act to grab as much of the lost contractual gains that you can. For yourselves. There is no overriding greater good in your move." You see, when we secure an industry leading contract, other pilot groups will have something worthwhile to shoot for. UAL did it, followed by DL... unfortunately, 9/11 hit and it all collapsed. We are trying to do what they did. I think we'll succeed.
Along with this "united force" within the APA comes the drive to engage everyone on, and off, the property. That NEVER existed at AA. Now, it does, because the truth is, we are all AA pilots that will work under a much-improved contract for the same airline - regardless of our backgrounds. That's why DG introduced the resolution to ease the back payments (sorry if I mislabelled it.) That's why APA is pushing for LOS for ALL furloughees. If I'm not mistaken, I don't see any labelling of ex TWA or ex Reno or whatever (I'm ex ACA.)
The fact that you won't come back to AA certainly influences your bitterness and your dim view of the APA - that we're just in it for ourselves. The truth is, if you WERE coming back, I think you'd be a lot more supportive of the fact that we're fighting the good fight. For us and for the industry. For example, UAL ALPA and APA had a couple of picket events together and we praise one another on the progress we're making. That's because we are all in this industry together. There is no "my airline/union is better than yours" nonsense. This is the good fight against corrupt management. THAT is the union ideal you, and everyone, should be looking for.
I supported a full dues amnesty for TWA pilots but like I said, the politics involved with changing the constitution for a specific group are beyond me. If that's what you're waiting for to get closure, you'll probably be waiting forever. But like I said, if you were taking a recall here, you'd probably have a much bigger vested interest in our fight against management. Since you're not, it's probably pretty easy to take pot shots against us.
Finally - I don't believe I've posted any incorrect info that may be misinterpreted by you as *opinion*.... which may certainly not sit well... but I always try and post factual stuff. I've been wrong before. But I believe you are not agreeing with my opinion and that's fine.
73
11-11-2007 | 02:02 PM
#18
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
From: B757/767 FO
LTD,
I'm no fan of the APA, but I think your taking your anger out on the wrong guy. AA73 has been on our side regarding the integration, just review his posts. Not all AA pilots are bad guys, I have met several I call friends since the buyout, and had no more control over what happened than we did.
I'm really happy that you found a place to hang your hat, anytime a TWA brother/sister escapes to a better situation, I'm happy. Take care.
xtwapilot
I'm no fan of the APA, but I think your taking your anger out on the wrong guy. AA73 has been on our side regarding the integration, just review his posts. Not all AA pilots are bad guys, I have met several I call friends since the buyout, and had no more control over what happened than we did.
I'm really happy that you found a place to hang your hat, anytime a TWA brother/sister escapes to a better situation, I'm happy. Take care.
xtwapilot
11-11-2007 | 04:20 PM
#20
On Reserve
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: Captain B 737
LTD,
Dude, I understand your bitter. Got it and I actually understand why. For me I was lucky. The B scale was the only thing I ever suffered through. (I know BFD), They (APA) did what they did. Was it right? was it wrong? We can all agree what it did to the industry. Lots of very bad things have happened to a lot of good people. There is no difference between you or I accept by pure dumb luck on my part I was in the right place at the right time to get hired by AA. APA made some BIG mistakes.... The TWA screw job was horrible to about 2000 but the 400 or so at the top of the TWA pile think it was a pretty good deal?? Have vs. have nots.... I just spoke to a guy yesterday, in the SIM building, who is coming back directly to the 767 in STL. He was happy to be back? He said he was directly to me.... You have obviously lumped us all together as lousy APA members. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think we are all bad guys. We (APA) are making a play for unity. I'll vote ONE FRIGGIN VOTE for anything which supports our unity. I blindly think that unity will get ME PERSONALLY a better contract. Is that selfish?? MAYBE but If I / WE at APA get a industry leading contract to line MY GREEDY pockets only a fool does not see the ENTIRE industry will be effected. Conversely if we get our APA a&&es kicked by AMR the ENTIRE FRIGGIN industry is gonna suffer. So historically good or historically bad it makes no friggin difference. It is here and NOW for APA. If you choose to come back it is you too. Member or Non-member. To all the TWA guys I'm asking for your help. Does the APA deserve it? Probably not. But hell if we are gonna condemn the entire lot of us based on the recent past we will never get anywhere. Regardless of how bad things were or are getting involved, becoming a member, voicing your voice and voting your one friggin vote means something. Heck with the apathy of many of the APA members who don't even bother to vote the former TWA votes could swing a majority if the members were involved. But standing on the side just telling me and my union how screwed up I am does nobody any good. Again I'm asking for help in unity. You can tell me to f76k OFF because you got screwed, (and I agree you did) or get on board and try to make it better. But I just don't agree with we are all evil self centered as&holes.... If you choose not to come back I respect that and hope you fly safe and have good luck and happy times.
DOG MY FIGHT IS WITH AMR
Dude, I understand your bitter. Got it and I actually understand why. For me I was lucky. The B scale was the only thing I ever suffered through. (I know BFD), They (APA) did what they did. Was it right? was it wrong? We can all agree what it did to the industry. Lots of very bad things have happened to a lot of good people. There is no difference between you or I accept by pure dumb luck on my part I was in the right place at the right time to get hired by AA. APA made some BIG mistakes.... The TWA screw job was horrible to about 2000 but the 400 or so at the top of the TWA pile think it was a pretty good deal?? Have vs. have nots.... I just spoke to a guy yesterday, in the SIM building, who is coming back directly to the 767 in STL. He was happy to be back? He said he was directly to me.... You have obviously lumped us all together as lousy APA members. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think we are all bad guys. We (APA) are making a play for unity. I'll vote ONE FRIGGIN VOTE for anything which supports our unity. I blindly think that unity will get ME PERSONALLY a better contract. Is that selfish?? MAYBE but If I / WE at APA get a industry leading contract to line MY GREEDY pockets only a fool does not see the ENTIRE industry will be effected. Conversely if we get our APA a&&es kicked by AMR the ENTIRE FRIGGIN industry is gonna suffer. So historically good or historically bad it makes no friggin difference. It is here and NOW for APA. If you choose to come back it is you too. Member or Non-member. To all the TWA guys I'm asking for your help. Does the APA deserve it? Probably not. But hell if we are gonna condemn the entire lot of us based on the recent past we will never get anywhere. Regardless of how bad things were or are getting involved, becoming a member, voicing your voice and voting your one friggin vote means something. Heck with the apathy of many of the APA members who don't even bother to vote the former TWA votes could swing a majority if the members were involved. But standing on the side just telling me and my union how screwed up I am does nobody any good. Again I'm asking for help in unity. You can tell me to f76k OFF because you got screwed, (and I agree you did) or get on board and try to make it better. But I just don't agree with we are all evil self centered as&holes.... If you choose not to come back I respect that and hope you fly safe and have good luck and happy times.
DOG MY FIGHT IS WITH AMR
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