EOS Airlines
11-23-2007 | 06:02 AM
#31
VHR-very happily retired
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Retired
The seat cost per mile is not a valid argument as for what a pilot makes. A flight from ILM to JFK runs about $250 to $350 each way depending on when the ticket is purchased. That's about $24,000 gross revenue if the flight is full. The block time is about 1:50. EOS carries 48 passengers at a price of about $2,400 per seat, which translate to gross revenue of $115,200, again if seats are full with a block time of about 8:00. If both carriers have an average utilization of 16:00 per day, you can determine where who is going to make more.... even if both aircraft had the same direct operating expenses.
The bar setting thing does not start with the 757 or Airbus pilot... it starts at the bottom of the food chain... the RJ guys such like yourself. Regional guys sold themselves when they accepted such low pay to fly a jet. The low pay then flowed up to the majors who at one time owned the commuters. Perform an analysis of first through fight year pay for initial hires in the 80's to today at Delta, NW, UAL, and CAL. After inflation you will see that initial pay has dropped dramatically.
So Koolaidman... don't preach to the SKYBUS, V/A, EOS, or MAXjet guys on how they should raise the bar. The bulk of these crews are high time experienced pilots who were either furloughed, or took early retirement. You should be out their on your soapbox preaching to the entrants to the regional demanding hire entry and subsequent pay and benefits.
The bar setting thing does not start with the 757 or Airbus pilot... it starts at the bottom of the food chain... the RJ guys such like yourself. Regional guys sold themselves when they accepted such low pay to fly a jet. The low pay then flowed up to the majors who at one time owned the commuters. Perform an analysis of first through fight year pay for initial hires in the 80's to today at Delta, NW, UAL, and CAL. After inflation you will see that initial pay has dropped dramatically.
So Koolaidman... don't preach to the SKYBUS, V/A, EOS, or MAXjet guys on how they should raise the bar. The bulk of these crews are high time experienced pilots who were either furloughed, or took early retirement. You should be out their on your soapbox preaching to the entrants to the regional demanding hire entry and subsequent pay and benefits.
11-23-2007 | 06:35 AM
#32
Doing One Pilot's Job
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,899
Likes: 152
Originally Posted by Koolaidman
For the sake of my argument, we'll assume your 757 holds 150 people compared to my RJ which holds 50.
Your reasoning is sound, but for the sake of this discussion is flawed for the above reason.
11-23-2007 | 10:32 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 273
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From: KC-135R IP/EP
Very flawed argument using the seats per aircraft...apples to oranges...
I kinda like the comparison about major league and minor league ball...they all have MINIMUM salaries at each level but the good players get the big bucks from the big teams...
In the military your pay is based a little on seniority and a little on merit (rank), could that work in the airlines?...probably with alot of a$$kissing taking place!
I kinda like the comparison about major league and minor league ball...they all have MINIMUM salaries at each level but the good players get the big bucks from the big teams...
In the military your pay is based a little on seniority and a little on merit (rank), could that work in the airlines?...probably with alot of a$$kissing taking place!
11-24-2007 | 05:50 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: Left Seat
Yet another reasonable argument for us all belonging to one union they focuses on the pilots. Structured pay based on Gross Weight. An aircraft weighing xxxxx to xxxxx pays $XXX.XX, an so on. If we all had the same rates then pilot pay would no longer be a bargaining chip for companies. Lets start making deals based on what management gets paid for a change. Let them skin the cat somewhere else besides the employees pockets.
11-25-2007 | 07:47 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 919
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Yet another reasonable argument for us all belonging to one union they focuses on the pilots. Structured pay based on Gross Weight. An aircraft weighing xxxxx to xxxxx pays $XXX.XX, an so on. If we all had the same rates then pilot pay would no longer be a bargaining chip for companies. Lets start making deals based on what management gets paid for a change. Let them skin the cat somewhere else besides the employees pockets.
11-25-2007 | 11:27 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 101
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From: MD-11 FO Furloughed
For what it's worth, it took me over 10 yrs at brand X airline to make $124 per hour as a 757 Capt. So sounds like the bar has been raised at a smaller carrier by oh say 5 yrs...
Last edited by Ve764; 11-25-2007 at 11:28 AM. Reason: yearly adjustment
11-25-2007 | 12:25 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,242
Likes: 70
From: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
If you don't mind sharing with us, which carrier were you with that took 10 years to make $124.00 with?
11-25-2007 | 02:52 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 736
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From: B777 Left
Yet another reasonable argument for us all belonging to one union they focuses on the pilots. Structured pay based on Gross Weight. An aircraft weighing xxxxx to xxxxx pays $XXX.XX, an so on. If we all had the same rates then pilot pay would no longer be a bargaining chip for companies. Lets start making deals based on what management gets paid for a change. Let them skin the cat somewhere else besides the employees pockets.
When you set the bar, whatever it may be, that's what management will use as there "end" point, in good times. Why should management even bargain when they know they can go into mediation/arbitration and just wait on what the union said the seat was worth.
Just as things have bargined themselves down (pattern bargaining), it should work its way back up. That's how Delta ended up with over 310/hr for a 777 captain. It was "United Plus". Unfortunately years later it became "United minus".
And by the way, supplemental type carriers ususally have always paid less than the legacies, for doing the same job on the same equipment. And I lump startups along with supplemental carriers in the same group. Give them time.
A carrier with 4 airplanes will not affect the bargaining at any national or major. And remember, if the minimum was not good enough, there wouldn't be a minimum.
Last edited by Skyone; 11-26-2007 at 06:12 AM.
11-26-2007 | 12:55 AM
#40
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: SKYW CRJ FO
So are you saying that regionals are the reason the legacies took a huge pay cut and not bankruptcy?
If you want to use weight for measurement of pay, fine. Second year Southwest or American MD-80 guys makes what compared to what EOS second year FO makes? That is the point I am trying to make. It is tough to get pay up when you will fly a 757 for X amount while American is trying to get back to what they had. I don't see why that is so difficult to understand? If you want to use the aircraft's weight for a measurement of pay, we can do that too. Next post when I get bored.
If you want to use weight for measurement of pay, fine. Second year Southwest or American MD-80 guys makes what compared to what EOS second year FO makes? That is the point I am trying to make. It is tough to get pay up when you will fly a 757 for X amount while American is trying to get back to what they had. I don't see why that is so difficult to understand? If you want to use the aircraft's weight for a measurement of pay, we can do that too. Next post when I get bored.
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