BA 777 Crashlanding
01-17-2008, 03:43 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 30 West
Posts: 417
Originally Posted by FliFast
I looked at some of the pictures and though I did see some charring by the R3/R4 doors from a possible fire. Did anyone else see that or is it explainable in other terms ? Could the darkened area be dirt...I just don't know.
I'd be willing to bet it's dirt. I saw a video taken from a helicopter and it looked to me like the plane rolled through about 1500 feet of grass before it got to the end of the runway. Don't you know it would be slinging a lot of mud behind the wing
01-17-2008, 03:58 PM
#42
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,750
Originally Posted by mike734
I hope this crash was caused by a Ab-initio pilot with 500 hours total time F'ing up and landing short.
I understood all of it. The insinuation here is pretty strong without having any facts. Pretty lame if you ask me.
01-17-2008, 04:04 PM
#43
Chief Jeppesen Updater
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
Originally Posted by FliFast
I would be curious if anyone on here was flying into Heathrow or can research the weather at the time of accident. Also, if there were any delays, holding, airport closed for security concerns, etc.
FF
FF
EGLL 171320Z 22016KT 9999 BKN014 BKN020 11/09 Q0996 TEMPO 24020G32KT 6000 SHRA BKN015CB
EGLL 171250Z 20013KT 9999 BKN008 10/08 Q0996 BECMG 24018G28KT SCT012 BKN020
EGLL 171220Z 21014KT 180V240 9999 SCT008 BKN010 09/08 Q0997 TEMPO 21018G28KT 4000 RADZ BKN008
EGLL 171150Z 20014KT 170V240 9999 FEW006 SCT010 09/08 Q0997
EGLL 171120Z 19017KT 160V230 5000 DZ BKN006 OVC010 09/07 Q0998 TEMPO 19020G30KT 4000
EGLL 171050Z 19017KT 6000 DZ BKN007 09/07 Q0999 TEMPO 19020G30KT
01-17-2008, 04:45 PM
#44
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 125
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
Whoa whoa whoa!!!!! Gear down there big shifter! Do you really want to start the old, stale, boring, pi$$ing mil vs. civ match? And if I'm not mistaken, I don't think the debate of RJ CA vs. Mil pilot was brought up yet, was it?
They are talking about an ab-initio Euro training academy civilan vs a military trained pilot.
YOUR training was INTENSE from day 1, flying sophisticated, complex, fast moving equipment from day 1, and sometimes BY YOUR SELF, my hats off to you. Compare that to what is ACTUALLY being talked about. How intense is the cadet program at a European ab-initio training academy? They start off in basic, slow moving, piston equipment, rack up the requisite number of hours to comply for an ICAO commercial/JAA frozen ATPL, THEN go to the more advanced training. The only time they get into that piston plane ALONE is when it's required to satisfy a solo requirement. And even then, the training is done in sims, the guy will NEVER have to act as PIC/aircraft commander.
Make sense?
They are talking about an ab-initio Euro training academy civilan vs a military trained pilot.
YOUR training was INTENSE from day 1, flying sophisticated, complex, fast moving equipment from day 1, and sometimes BY YOUR SELF, my hats off to you. Compare that to what is ACTUALLY being talked about. How intense is the cadet program at a European ab-initio training academy? They start off in basic, slow moving, piston equipment, rack up the requisite number of hours to comply for an ICAO commercial/JAA frozen ATPL, THEN go to the more advanced training. The only time they get into that piston plane ALONE is when it's required to satisfy a solo requirement. And even then, the training is done in sims, the guy will NEVER have to act as PIC/aircraft commander.
Make sense?
I experienced both training curriculae you are talking about. On student side and instructor side. Both had washout rates of 80-90%.
Every session/sortie (civie and mil) was thoroughly briefed and debriefed.
Only the best passed.
01-17-2008, 04:49 PM
#45
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 259
Originally Posted by quimby
land short, rip off the mains, severe engine damage on impact........and no fire? hmmm......
01-17-2008, 05:08 PM
#46
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: Retired, LEFT seat
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by VTcharter
The C-5 that went down in Dover last year broke into several pieces, one of which involved the outboard section of the left wing seperating and no fire occured. It was full of fuel to cross the pond, so there was definately fuel spilling.
That accident was a classic example of how a number of folks could miss the forrest and all of the trees.....
They had it up and locked.
Bill
01-17-2008, 05:11 PM
#47
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: Retired, LEFT seat
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by 4th Level
Do you mean starvation or exhaustion? For the first indication of fuel exhaustion to the crew (they reported no problems prior) to be engine flame out is all but impossible. Additionally, separate engines = separate tanks. The odds of BOTH running out of fuel at nearly the exact same time is again, very unlikely.
Now if you are suggesting the engines were starved of fuel due to some action by the crew (DL 767 over LAX) or loss of fuel control, then MAYBE.
Now if you are suggesting the engines were starved of fuel due to some action by the crew (DL 767 over LAX) or loss of fuel control, then MAYBE.
Bill
01-17-2008, 05:41 PM
#48
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by saab2000
I understood all of it. The insinuation here is pretty strong without having any facts. Pretty lame if you ask me.
Here's the deal. Our profession is under attack. So far we are losing. This loss can be translated in to the loss of hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars PER PILOT. The possibility of ab-initio pilots becoming the norm in the USA is not one I'm enthusiastic about. IF, IF, IF a low time pilot was involved in this crash some people will jump on it and claim that inexperience played a part. I will read those articles and smile, not because I think it is true, but because I know it will bolster the argument that ab-initio is "dangerous." Never mind it's been used by the military and many foreign carriers for years and is probably not dangerous. The media will run with it and I will sit back knowing it is helping my (our) cause.
The only thing that will raise pay and benefits for guys like you and me is a pilot shortage. I am perfectly happy to support most anything that will bring about this shortage.
If you want to call me callous or insensitive, go ahead. Remember, I didn't and don't wish for this kind of thing to happen but I'm hopeful that IF it does happen and "inexperience" can be included in the cause, that is a good thing for all of us.
01-17-2008, 05:53 PM
#49
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,750
Ab Initio under JAA and 'Ab Initio' under FAA are two wildly different things. Trust me. I know both.
one involves a washout rate of 80%-90%. The other involves a one-day course at some "school" in Texas where you do electronic flash cards involving short term memory. The pass rate is very high. The long term retention of this is not.
I don't hope anyone high or low time was involved in this accident. Thankfully nobody was hurt.
But there is NO COMPARISON between Euro low-timers and US low-timers. Done both.
There is no reason a low-timer can't do this job if they are selected and trained properly. And no, you can't just buy your job over there. It's a 'whole 'nuther ball o' wax' over there. My Interview/Selection lasted three days there. Here in the US it lasted about 10 minutes. Including a test of something like 10 questions. You're kidding, right?
Good pilots exist everywhere. It's judgement and training and experience and selection, and, and, and and.....
Peace.
Thankfully nobody was hurt and tomorrow we will learn something from this instead of people going to funerals.
one involves a washout rate of 80%-90%. The other involves a one-day course at some "school" in Texas where you do electronic flash cards involving short term memory. The pass rate is very high. The long term retention of this is not.
I don't hope anyone high or low time was involved in this accident. Thankfully nobody was hurt.
But there is NO COMPARISON between Euro low-timers and US low-timers. Done both.
There is no reason a low-timer can't do this job if they are selected and trained properly. And no, you can't just buy your job over there. It's a 'whole 'nuther ball o' wax' over there. My Interview/Selection lasted three days there. Here in the US it lasted about 10 minutes. Including a test of something like 10 questions. You're kidding, right?
Good pilots exist everywhere. It's judgement and training and experience and selection, and, and, and and.....
Peace.
Thankfully nobody was hurt and tomorrow we will learn something from this instead of people going to funerals.
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