[QUOTE=aerospacepilot;323431]

Jungle has a really extreme point of view...QUOTE]


I have to laugh when the point of view created by centuries of economic thought and study is called extreme.
My immediate reaction is to marvel at the product of current public schooling.
Best of luck with the aparat of the Kommisar's economic planning kommittee.

 

Oil is oil is oil. Whether it comes from the desert in Saudi Arabia, or whether it comes off the beautiful shoreline of California, it is still subject to the same laws of demand, price speculation, and it will eventually run out. We are at a critical time in our nations history. Energy prices our choking our economy. Using oil is destroying our environment. And we are sending BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars each year to countries that we hate (Iran, Venezuela, Iraq, Nigeria, and to a lesser extend Saudi Arabia).

We can do one of three things:
1. We can keep it the way it is, aka, let the "free market" run its course. The price of oil will only get higher. Our economy will go through a full blown recession. And we will still send HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars to Iran, Venezuela, Iraq, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia. NOT GOOD!

2. We can put a band-aid on the gushing wound. That means sacrificing some of the most sacred environment on earth (off the shore of California, Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, and the Rocky Mountains) and drilling for our own oil. Fair enough, but oil is still subject to the same supply and demand that has caused the price of oil to increase 8 times the price it was in 1998. It is still subject to the same price speculation. It is still subject to the same, everytime someone picks up a gun in Saudi Arabia, the price goes through the roof BS. Sure the extra supply will help reduce the price, but not nearly enough to release the pressure that is choking our economy. Still sending billions to countries we hate. Destroying the most sacred environment on the planet.
And the whole point is that in 10-20 years we will be right back where we started with only options 1 and 3 left. And nothing will have been accomplished (except destroying the environment and sending billions to countries we hate, and not letting our economy reach its full potential).


OR, we can do option 3.
An "Apollo" type effort to get the US off of oil. Invest in alternative energy (wind, hydro, solar, nuclear, whatever technology is deemed good). Make every car model produced in a plug-in hybrid, or should better battery technology come along, completely electric car. Why would anyone be opposed to an electric car if it can go as fast, go as far, accelerate as fast, and tow as much as a gas powered car? Offer something to offset the slight increase in price of a plug-in hybrid versus a gas car. Tax credit sounds good. Electricity is the cheapest known way to power an automobile. And if our investment in alternative energy produces better technology, that price will only go DOWN. So most people will buy these plug-in hybrid/pure electric cars. All energy is now US "grown."

We stop sending BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars over seas to countries we hate. Not only is that good for national security and defense, but now all that money will go completely to US companies (instead of just US oil companies, and the rest going to foreign countries). Now the price of energy is cheap (I think electricity costs about $0.60/gallon of gas equivalent, so about 20% the cost of gas). Every person who drives a decent amount has an extra $1,000 to spend each year. Major corporations save MILLIONS. All this money gets used in the US economy, causing a sustained period of economic prosperity. The US becomes a net exporter of oil. Now that the worlds largest oil consumer is not consuming oil, the demand for oil, and thus the price of oil drops drastically. Jet fuel becomes dirt cheap (comparatively). Nations like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Nigeria, and Venezuela loose BILLIONS of dollars.

Oh, and did I mention this entire method is incredibly environmentally friendly (comparatively).

And you are right... we should not be turning our food supply into energy. That is the Bush administration and all politicians whose constituents live in rural farmland. I am completely for stopping all of those subsidies and giving that to companies researching solar, wind, hydro, or nuclear power. No argument there.


How does this sound? We have three options. I am for the third option. But as long as our nation selects option 1 or 2, we will still have a problem. Perhaps option 3 makes too much sense!

 

Option three is a proposal assuming Americans can handle the immediate cost of around $12 for energy to equal a gallon of gasoline. Not going to happen. Get out of Mother Jones and belly up to a few engineering articles.

Please also kindly remember that no government ever made a dime, they only confiscate and redistribute never actually creating wealth-any large scale effort to legislate technology will come with a very stiff price tag that all of us will pay, on top of the 9 trillion + debt we have accumulated through social engineering efforts.

 

I have made my point of view known. Fortunately the US is heading more towards my way than the "let the free market handle it" way. My only gripe is it is not happening fast enough. You sound like someone who wants Ron Paul to win (and that is fine), but I just happen to disagree with you.


And, it is a fact that electricity costs about 0.60 cents per gallon of gas equivalent. So the only thing keeping consumers from buying plug-in hybrids/electric cars are:
1. They don't have the range/speed/payload some consumers want (this will change very soon)
2. They cost slightly more to produce. No one seems to care about the immense gas savings. But that is why we need tax credits to encourage consumers to buy these type of cars.

 

Electric plug in autos require more electricity, which is derived from coal burning power plants.

 

I've researched this topic extensively and all my posts on APC have centered around this issue of oil price. While I don't have all the answers on this one, I really think we're seeing peak oil. It's real simple: virtually all oil producing nations have peaked in terms of oil discoveries/production. As a matter of fact, the only nations that have not peaked are in the middle-east...Saudi Arabia, Iraq, maybe Kuwait. This is where speculation comes into play. The Saudis have never allowed an independent audit of their supposed oil reserves. This from a country that produced 17 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11. We're gonna trust the Saudis when they say they have plenty of reserves left? They have not discovered a major oil reserve in Saudi Arabia since the 1960's. Currently they are barely able to produce 12/13 million bbl per day, despite the explosive economic growth in China and India.

The market will not adapt to the price of oil...oil built the modern-day marketplace. I've always thought that all pilots should know about Peak Oil and it's father, M King Hubbert. I believe his ideas are as important as Bernoulli's and Newton's. I've posted some links below, they're the best explanation of what we're seeing and going to see in the future. To say the least, a very interesting time to be an airline pilot.

Alternative energy is not the answer. It's too energy expensive to produce to justify its extensive use. It's a step in the right direction, but nothing in this world will ever match the fossil fuels in terms of their power and efficiency.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImV1voi41YY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IwtAQzrfiw

 

So what kind of electric car do you drive? Since you say it is the cheapest, surely you have purchased one.

Ron Paul? Sorry, just another unelectable fruitcake.

 

Exactly. I'm not sure the refining capacity of European countries but I would venture to say that it's considerably less than our capacity. That, in my opinion, is probably the reason their fuel prices are so high. Well, capacity and their tax structure.

I hope you didn't think I was being antagonistic towards you....I believe you and I are on similar if not the same page.

 

Simple, sell, send, give away the vast fleet of "too much fuel" burned per passenger mile RJs.

 

Not to worry, we are on the same frequency. In the EU and Asia the fuel price differential is almost entirely due to taxes.

The Texas refinery that blew up this week was constructed in 1928, 1928!

There has been zero refinery capacity built new in the US since the sixties.

Not to say these refineries haven't been updated, but capacity remains tight.