Advising ATC of airspeed changes
03-26-2008, 10:15 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 117
Advising ATC of airspeed changes
(I posted this in the Regional section also)
Hi all. This is an anonymous controller, with a tip from my side, that will help everyone in the long run...
More and more, with fuel prices, etc, airlines are adjusting their airspeeds to meet their particular needs. A big problem is that a lot (not all) of pilots are doing this without informing ATC. Routinely, we'll get two identical aircraft from the same airline, departing the same airport 10 miles in trail. The front guy will be climbing at 230kts and the back guy at 320. Center separation is usually 5 miles, so it doesn't take very long at all from when I take the hand-off from approach, (and the back guy leaves 10000 feet and firewalls it), for him to catch his company in front, who's doing the econo-climb.
I've been doing this job for 20 years. When I started, you could always count on some airlines to fly fast, and others slow. It made for instant recognition when I saw the call sign, that I'd better double-check for over-takes.
Today, it's impossible, because like-types within the same airline are doing completely different things. We've been having a lot of "deals" (operational errors) because of this. Operating too slow or too fast hurts us, in that, we get de-certified, and lately, will lose money if we do. If we have too many deals (more than 3), we'll be fired.
You can help by informing us if you plan to fly significantly different than what your flight plan is filed for. In fact the Airman's Information Manual (AIM), while not an FAA "Order" (like the 7110.65 Air Traffic Handbook), says:
5-5-9. Speed Adjustments
a. Pilot.
1. Advises ATC any time cruising airspeed varies plus or minus 5 percent or 10 knots, whichever is greater, from that given in the flight plan.
Now, technically, it says "cruising airspeed", but I think they meant to differentiate it from when you're on an approach. If you're on a SID, there's a good chance there's a plane in front or behind you.
Thanks for reading this and please take it only as a view from the ground, and not ridicule.
Hi all. This is an anonymous controller, with a tip from my side, that will help everyone in the long run...
More and more, with fuel prices, etc, airlines are adjusting their airspeeds to meet their particular needs. A big problem is that a lot (not all) of pilots are doing this without informing ATC. Routinely, we'll get two identical aircraft from the same airline, departing the same airport 10 miles in trail. The front guy will be climbing at 230kts and the back guy at 320. Center separation is usually 5 miles, so it doesn't take very long at all from when I take the hand-off from approach, (and the back guy leaves 10000 feet and firewalls it), for him to catch his company in front, who's doing the econo-climb.
I've been doing this job for 20 years. When I started, you could always count on some airlines to fly fast, and others slow. It made for instant recognition when I saw the call sign, that I'd better double-check for over-takes.
Today, it's impossible, because like-types within the same airline are doing completely different things. We've been having a lot of "deals" (operational errors) because of this. Operating too slow or too fast hurts us, in that, we get de-certified, and lately, will lose money if we do. If we have too many deals (more than 3), we'll be fired.
You can help by informing us if you plan to fly significantly different than what your flight plan is filed for. In fact the Airman's Information Manual (AIM), while not an FAA "Order" (like the 7110.65 Air Traffic Handbook), says:
5-5-9. Speed Adjustments
a. Pilot.
1. Advises ATC any time cruising airspeed varies plus or minus 5 percent or 10 knots, whichever is greater, from that given in the flight plan.
Now, technically, it says "cruising airspeed", but I think they meant to differentiate it from when you're on an approach. If you're on a SID, there's a good chance there's a plane in front or behind you.
Thanks for reading this and please take it only as a view from the ground, and not ridicule.
03-26-2008, 12:03 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Self employed
Posts: 3,048
No ridicule ????
You're in the wrong forum.
So, what's in the flight plan concerning my descent speed ? Is it 250 or 320 ? Same for climb. The answer is nothing, of course.
My advice from this side of the mike, control the traffic. Assign speeds if there is the possibility of getting two together.
Now for one of my ATC war stories. When United started their TED service in the mid 90's, they decided to climb at 180 kts. Of course, no memo to ATC. Even though every aircraft was assigned 250kts out of SFO, the first words typically given to the front aircraft by the center was "resume normal speed", of course, ASSUMING they would speed up. Naturally, that first SFO TED departure slowed to 180, while the Challenger jet behind increased to over 300.
Deal.
Vector for spacing, assign speeds to keep it, and don't assume anything. Basic ATC 101.
You're in the wrong forum.
So, what's in the flight plan concerning my descent speed ? Is it 250 or 320 ? Same for climb. The answer is nothing, of course.
My advice from this side of the mike, control the traffic. Assign speeds if there is the possibility of getting two together.
Now for one of my ATC war stories. When United started their TED service in the mid 90's, they decided to climb at 180 kts. Of course, no memo to ATC. Even though every aircraft was assigned 250kts out of SFO, the first words typically given to the front aircraft by the center was "resume normal speed", of course, ASSUMING they would speed up. Naturally, that first SFO TED departure slowed to 180, while the Challenger jet behind increased to over 300.
Deal.
Vector for spacing, assign speeds to keep it, and don't assume anything. Basic ATC 101.
03-26-2008, 12:54 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 117
So, what's in the flight plan concerning my descent speed ? Is it 250 or 320 ? Same for climb. The answer is nothing, of course.
Point taken. However, refer to the AIM ref. above. If you're going to fly your airplane at a snail's pace, TELL ME. You think all I have to do is watch your airplane? Most of the time, I work without help (an assistant) because there isn't enough staffing anymore. I have two eyes looking at upwards of 25 aircraft at once, in addition to endless landline coordination calls. The scenario I described earlier, gives me probably 2 minutes or less to notice, evaluate and take action before a deal occurs. I'm here to serve you. But I have to know things in a timely manner so there's time to keep things safe and orderly. If not, it goes to s%$ real-quick.
My advice from this side of the mike, control the traffic. Assign speeds if there is the possibility of getting two together.
Well duh! I've had 1 deal in 19 years, I know what I'm doing. I'm just asking for some help. This is your ATC system too, so participate. When I started, there were 6,000 ops per day. It's now 9,000. We have a lot fewer controllers also. At one point, we had 410. Today it's around 280.
Vector for spacing, assign speeds to keep it, and don't assume anything. Basic ATC 101.
Yes, yes and hell no I don't.
Point taken. However, refer to the AIM ref. above. If you're going to fly your airplane at a snail's pace, TELL ME. You think all I have to do is watch your airplane? Most of the time, I work without help (an assistant) because there isn't enough staffing anymore. I have two eyes looking at upwards of 25 aircraft at once, in addition to endless landline coordination calls. The scenario I described earlier, gives me probably 2 minutes or less to notice, evaluate and take action before a deal occurs. I'm here to serve you. But I have to know things in a timely manner so there's time to keep things safe and orderly. If not, it goes to s%$ real-quick.
My advice from this side of the mike, control the traffic. Assign speeds if there is the possibility of getting two together.
Well duh! I've had 1 deal in 19 years, I know what I'm doing. I'm just asking for some help. This is your ATC system too, so participate. When I started, there were 6,000 ops per day. It's now 9,000. We have a lot fewer controllers also. At one point, we had 410. Today it's around 280.
Vector for spacing, assign speeds to keep it, and don't assume anything. Basic ATC 101.
Yes, yes and hell no I don't.
03-26-2008, 01:09 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
I respect the heck out of what ATC controllers have to deal with. I would not care for the stress you guys deal with.
Having said that, I also agree that there are no standard climb or descent speeds published anywhere...FARs or AIM. As a pilot, if it's not in the book, it's all technique (or company preference).
If manning (and ultimately safety) is a consideration, I urge you to engage your union and/or your supervisors..who will hopefully engage your customers (those who utilize your airspace), in an attempt to codify some standards--or at least publish airspeeds on all SIDs and STARs (if those speeds are not already published).
Having said that, I also agree that there are no standard climb or descent speeds published anywhere...FARs or AIM. As a pilot, if it's not in the book, it's all technique (or company preference).
If manning (and ultimately safety) is a consideration, I urge you to engage your union and/or your supervisors..who will hopefully engage your customers (those who utilize your airspace), in an attempt to codify some standards--or at least publish airspeeds on all SIDs and STARs (if those speeds are not already published).
03-26-2008, 03:08 PM
#8
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Seeburg -
I actually did do this once when I decided that after I had leveled off at my final cruising altitude that I would being flying much faster than what was on my flight plan. I swear I thought I could hear the initial confusion when I reported my change in TAS to him and then something akin to annoyance that I had taken the air time to report such a trivial matter. Needless to say that I didn't worry about it too much since (right or wrong). I certainly got the feeling that ATC didn't really give a hoot.
USMCFLYR
I actually did do this once when I decided that after I had leveled off at my final cruising altitude that I would being flying much faster than what was on my flight plan. I swear I thought I could hear the initial confusion when I reported my change in TAS to him and then something akin to annoyance that I had taken the air time to report such a trivial matter. Needless to say that I didn't worry about it too much since (right or wrong). I certainly got the feeling that ATC didn't really give a hoot.
USMCFLYR
03-26-2008, 08:30 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 973
Originally Posted by TonyWilliams
No ridicule ????
Now for one of my ATC war stories. When United started their TED service in the mid 90's, they decided to climb at 180 kts. .
Now for one of my ATC war stories. When United started their TED service in the mid 90's, they decided to climb at 180 kts. .
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