United didn't start TED until 2003.

 

I'd like to see a climb/descent speed on the flight plans. Would be a big red flag for me that would be easily noticed.

I know you have no way of knowing how fast or slow the guy in front of you or behind you is going. That's my worry, anyway. I'm just surprised at the radical difference in how the same jet is flown, both from the same airline and a different airline. Before the influx of Airbus', Emrbraers, and Bombadier's, 90% of the carriers that flew Boeings and MD's, flew them in a similar manner. Figure a climb out from 10k to mid-20's at around 300kts, give or take (737s in this example). Same when at cruise with mach numbers. Very constant across the airlines on what they would operate at, with a few notable exceptions. It's a different time now I guess.

Center separation is like apples and oranges compared to Tracon. With few exceptions, the absolute bare minimum is 5 miles at the same altitude. However, no one, and I mean no one, separates using 5 or even 6 miles. It just doesn't work (except when it "has" to work! lol). In one sector I work, I take a handoff from approach, and have a mere 4 minutes or less to hand them off to the next enroute center. The SID we use doesn't have a speed on it, but after reading all of the replies and thinking about it, I guess it needs to. Anyway, if I hand the next center less than 10 miles intrail, I'm not doing my job; I'm not helping my fellow controller out at all. That buffer of 5 miles there dissolves quickly, especially when aircraft decide to change airspeed settings from what they were before I took the handoff. My radar updates 1 time every 12 seconds, or 5 times a minute. Whatever I'm seeing on the screen, happened 12 seconds earlier, sometimes longer. Also, we use a mosaic system, where the computer is collecting radar returns from 2 or more radar sites at the same time. It then has to estimate (I call it guess), where your plane is exactly, and then display it on the screen. That's why we have to use at least 5 miles: for display error. There are locations (known) that targets will "jump". That's another consideration we have to take into account. I have seen tracks jump sideways and backwards. It's an attention-getter !

Anyway, it's good to hear views from up there, so I'm glad there has been as many responses as there have been. When we had the jumpseat program, I always enjoyed talking to you guys and getting your side of it. That's been a huge omission, in my opinion, for these new kids coming in. They really have no idea what you guys do, and for that matter, vice versa, as I never see pilots in for tours. Since my last fam trip was 7 years ago, I have not had the opportunity to fly in the new jets, which would help me, should they ever bring the program back. Take care guys n' gals - Anonymous

ps - I did work one of those new Eclipse VLJ's the other day. It went straight up! However, ground speed was only about 160 kts in the climb! Those are gonna be real fun

 

I think the complaint is that now some operators have more than one profile. We do at SkyWest: fuel conservation profile is 200kts to 10k, then 250kt to M.70 or M.74 (CRJ-200 or -700/-900), then cruise at M.74 / M.77.


If you scourge of the planet RJ's would get out of the fast lane then the controllers job would be easier and real jets could go faster. I think FAA needs to have slow lanes designed for RJ's, they are constantly clogging the airway. Also, no need to be a jerk to the controllers post he was just trying to give a suggestion.

 

I stand corrected. What was the service called from United, early 1990's, that was going to compete with Southwest Airlines when they moved into SFO ?

Maybe it didn't have a name ?

 

It's both. I agree with you, pilots should confess non-standard speeds. But, at a place like SLC where our company operates 100's of aircraft per day, I'm not going to tell them "Uh, center, I'm gunna descend at the same ole 320kts that we all do", however if I decide to do 250kts, sure, tell 'em you're going slow.





There was, and is, very few of the really slow jets in the "old days" that you I and worked ATC. The slotations and Bae146's were, and are very small in numbers and use compared to every "real" jet. Sure, a loaded 727 couldn't climb worth a crap, but it could haul the bacon.

I left the center 10 years ago, so I never got to work small RJ's. In the approach, they're all the same at 250kts or less. While I can see the slower RJ's being an added pain in the butt, it's not so much different than a B737-200 or DC-9 and a B747 of yore. Heck, we didn't even let the C500's and BA46's above FL230 !!!


I don't have any insight to help you with operators flying widely different speeds. But you admit that you're aware of the issue, and you have the control to not make it a problem. Your looking for condolences here, but once again, I recommend slapping a speed on 'em. Spare yourself the agony / embarrassment / loss of pay with a deal.

 

There's almost always a plane faster and slower than whatever you're flying, and traditionally the most extreme ones got and get a different routing and/or altitude. Nothing new there.


As to being a jerk.... I was a controller for about the same amount of time that this "anonymous" poster claims to be. I agree with his suggestion. I disagree that it's all on the pilots. The pilots can't know when speed will be an issue. Only the controller does. In those cases, assign a speed.

But then I'm the "scourge of the planet RJ'".

 

Pre "Ted" it was "Shuttle by United".

 

Just wondering why it is that we have to be vectored off course for spacing, told to maintain our current speed in the wrong direction versus slowing us down and keeping us on course, and then adjusting the speed accordingly. Lately I've been landing with 1500-2000 pounds LESS fuel than the flight plan shows due to ATC holds, deviations, etc. during CLEAR WX. This is costing us a LOT of money.... Thanks for "talking" to us SEEBURG220.

 

Don't try to outsmart the AIM. It means exactly what it says.

What does 7110.65 say about it?

 

Just a little info for the controllers. Our company manual says we can climb at 250/290/320. So depending on a lot of factors we'll climb at different speeds. I think most airlines do 290+ above 10k.

I do agree that the pilots should inform ATC if their cruise speed slower than filed. However, most of us are lazy.