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We already have 2 groups in place, working together. We have the America West Pilots Protective Association (AWAPPA) and another group set up for the legal battle. We have our merger attorney on board, already paid for, and another firm that specializes in litigation. We are taking the money that we paid in ALPA dues and putting it into our own group. The ultimate goal will be to dump USAPA and return to ALPA. We don't want to rely on USAPA for anything, particularly if another merger gets rammed up our tailpipe.

Cactusmike, is it true that you have to pay a agency shop fee to USAPA? Does that mean you will be paying the AWA lawyers and USAPA?

The cactus I used to know seems to be a tight little group. Just a little history lesson please. How long were you guys in SLI negotiation before it was turned over to arbitration? I think this disaster showcase one of the attribute in freedom: the majority opinion wins every time.

I hope your group the best of luck. We have our own pre-battle mania to attend:)

I think it was one year before we went to arbitration. Our guys walked into the first day of negotiations and one of their guys said "three words - date of hire". Kinda squashed conversation from there.

No contract with USAPA - no agency shop. And you would not believe the delay tactics you can do to not pay. We all stopped dues checkoff yesterday. No cash coming in from the West.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactusmike (Post 368338)

No contract with USAPA - no agency shop. And you would not believe the delay tactics you can do to not pay. We all stopped dues checkoff yesterday. No cash coming in from the West.

I believe you are very wrong here.

1. The contract continues status quo.

2. What makes you think, no agency shop?

3. I was Sec/Tres in a previous life. It is not too hard to fire a guy if he won't pay. Fire one guy and the rest will cave. That is usually not necessary though.

4. There is plenty of cash from the East side.

IMHO I don't think "date of hire" will fly but "years of service" has a good chance .

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactusmike (Post 368292)

AWA was not in a cash crunch. We had been profitable, something foreign to the old USAirways. US Air was gone, dead, done without Parker getting the money to do the deal. No Parker, no deal. No other entity, airline or not wanted anything to do with US Airways. They were gone by the end of July, possibly the end of June. Parker did not want to fight with SWA like he did over ATA (a better deal for both groups, that one), and so he did the deal. A monumental mistake. US Airways should have been left to die and we would have been merged with someone much better by now. Lets see, you lost how much over the past 20 years and you want to continue doing the same thing? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. (Einstein's words, I have been told).

AWA pilots voted for ALPA by 98%. We will not pay dues, any contract still has to be voted on by our pilot group according to the status quo. What if we don't pay dues? Parker would have to fire 1800 pilots, each of whom would have a day in court. Pretty doubtful. USAPA representation? What a joke, let's see how the guy that shot up his jet fares since the company has announced he is to be terminated. Another East piece of work.

USAPA is a Yellow Dog Union - a union set up specifically to bust the existing union. No true union worker would join a yellow dog union. Those who do are just as bad as scabs. Cactus pilots still have our AWA P numbers on the backs of our IDs. That's going to get us a lot better reception on ALPA jumpseats than a USAPA scab lanyard.

You are a victim of Doug Parker's bad deal.

You were not in a cash crunch before. But you would be in one now.

I'm an outsider and there is no easy answer to this. West guys should be mad at Parker's poor deal making. But you have to make nice since you merged with a BIGGER pilot group. Not your fault. Not the East's fault.

So do you support the new union? I guess it's not going to happen with the West's plan to litigate. The fact is ALPA is legally out. I wonder how FedEx dealt with this issue when they lost APA. We are now back to ALPA and happy. I don't think the pilot group sued FPA but I could be wrong.

Since you guys continue to have no sense of common ground you will be non-union after you're tired of spending money suing each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike734 (Post 368471)

3. I was Sec/Tres in a previous life. It is not too hard to fire a guy if he won't pay. Fire one guy and the rest will cave. That is usually not necessary though.

If all the westies stopped dues checkoff effectively at the same time, it could be hard to fire anybody...

Fire one (or ten) guys to make an example and they would just sue the company and the union for singling them out...why did they deserve to get fired, but not the other 1600-odd westies?

Legally you could fire the whole group...but that would probably put the company in Ch.7 within a week or two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 368499)

I don't know how that is handled. I imagine there is a way to work through the list. But the bigger picture is, if they don't pay they can't vote on any new TA/contract. And, if they have to pay a shop fee anyway, why not join and have a say/vote?

My prediction...We'll see you guys back in ALPA within 3 years.

Been there, done that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 368499)

Legally you could fire the whole group...but that would probably put the company in Ch.7 within a week or two.

If all the West guys/gals were fired for not paying, how many East guys are still on furlough to immediately replace them?

With slowing of major hiring, tons of regional guys would probably be willing to accept jobs there. Also, with numerous airline failures just this year, there are pilots out there looking for a job.

Plus, it's almost a given that USAPA would sue if they weren't fired. Probably part of the plan to get their East guys back off the street.

Seems to be playing into their hands. Not sure I would take that gamble on the West.