UAL seniority numbers
 

The 7/1/2008 seniority numbers are out. UAL only updates the numbers once per year. The bottom guy is 7747. That is 1000 less than my new hire number in 1997. 950 furloughs have been announced. As a coincidence, UAX now has 250 RJs flying around. RJ to a mainline guy stands for R Jobs. :(

you can have them all back...rj's should have been mainline to begin with.

They are/were your jobs. Unfortunately, mainline pilots decided to give them up.

Will be interesting to see if any language in the TA regarding furloughs, deals with jobs at the regionals.....and how that will happen. It is one of the negotiating items...sure is quiet from the MEC as they work through this and come up with a real number for us. Still no official number of furloughs, just the company idea of furloughs.

Take the finger you're pointing, then fold it in. Now stick out your thumb. That's the person who did this to you.

let me start off by saying that i don't know that much about the ins and outs of contracts however if i were a mainline pilot at the negotiating table, i would see that while the RJ is here to stay I would not want to be the one that is giving them flying. Why not try and make the few jobs at mainline xyz, that much better, and try to say something in a contract like; if the company does any shrinking that it has to shrink the express side first before any cuts can be imposed on the mainline side of things.
just a thought


cheers

The problem is that the company would want something in return for doing that...ie paycuts or some other concession (work rules). So you have to convince the senior guys to give up a little in order to benefit the bottom part of the list.

If you want soemthing they will demand something in return.

Present market.....post summer just months away.....Furloughs are just around the corner.

This "lets wait and see" about furloughs can not hold out much longer. With reduced schedules, downsizing, and bleeding of $$ as every hour as business passes, the furloughs are more than just a "company idea".

Not doom or gloom.....just living the reality.:mad:

jsled,

Will the company allow you guys to lower your maximums so as to mitigate furloughs? I heard your 320 and 737 pilots are flying up to 95 hours per month, which is waaaay too much. I was beat when NWA forced us up to 89 hours after only a few months. If they won't give it, maybe you guys/gals should take it, if you get my drift. :rolleyes:

New K Now

I dont know many mainline pilots who would want to fly BOS to PVD 6 times in a day in an RJ with the quality support from a regional airline.

I lived with a bunch of AA flow backs to AE and they HATED it. They all agreed if they know what it was going to be like they would have never done it.

Yes, some ok mainline flights got down graded to RJ's e.i. ORD to AUS but dont forget about all of the 18 to 35 min legs that are the bulk of the commuter pilot's world. Yes, its a job but not a very good quality of life and not worth the money. After making it to the majors I dont want to go back a RJ. I personally would rather wait it out and support my family better with a different job than go an fly an RJ. Some people may disagree or even be offended by this, but after 7 years at two regionals its how I feel.

Makes good sense, but if all the RJ's were on mainline's list it would solve so many other problems. If you as a NB or WB pilot were faced with getting bumped back into RJ's you could simply take a Vol LOA if you didn't want to do the RJ again. Company would rather you take a LOA than furlough a junior, lower-paid guy.

Then even so, they should have taken it or picked up and left. If you don't like it, you don't have to put up with it.

And if the majority of mainline guys at all the legacies ad their various unions did not give into scope, we would not be in all of this today. RJs should have been mainline, same w/props, but hey, a lot of those guys felt the RJs and props just weren't good enough for them and they got what they got.
And QOL for pilots suffers today because of it. But it is what it is, and I do what I do because it is what I want to do for now.

Uhh, sorry to break it to you guys but the regional life actually isn't that bad anymore.

• I haven't had a pairing yet that has had more than 3-4 legs a day, MAYBE.
• We only fly to mainline fields ie: DFW, JFK, MIA etc. (At least on the 170.)
• My average flight is not 18 to 35 min. it's more like 2:15 to 3:15 block on average.
• I had 17 days off last month with about 94 credit hours (pretty senior, if you call only 3 years senior)
• My quality of life is great! Never spent a day on reserve.

Now my point is not to gloat or rub anyone the wrong way, My 2 best friends are caught up in the cluster at UAL and I feel for EACH and EVERY one of you affected, but don't knock the regionals. OK, Pay sucks I admit and we need better contracts, duly noted, but I love my job. This is not your grandaddy's commuter anymore.

PS: UAL pilots are welcome on my JS anytime!

Which kind of makes my point. Those flights should be and were at one time a guppy or airbus. Over at CAL, they still are. Of course, CAL wasn't in bankruptcy the last time around. That is when the scope was gutted.

Brilliant...Could not have been the bankruptcy and the whole abrogating the contract threat. It was my fault. OK. 70 seaters were not allowed until the bankruptcy contract. If UAL had stayed out of the courts, maybe we could have held on to our scope and stagnated our commuters like ol' AMR and CAL. How is Eagle doing anyway?:p

They are? Why did Continental Express get 275 RJ's? Lost 70 of them, but CAL has a few other regionals flying for them now too. CAL is dumping 100+ 737-300/500's over the next two years too. CAL is no different. Their express carriers do a lot of the flying. Some flights over 3 hours.

Per management, look for AA and Continental to drop scope soon, GUARENTEED!
It's up to mainline drivers and your union to keep scope alive, but in this economic enviroment, not sure there's a leg to stand on. If scope is relieved, look for 190's in express colors docking at a jetbridge near you soon.

Well, at least you realize your pay sucks. And here's the problem: It's going to suck tomorrow, and the day after, and the day after that......It's probably no big deal for you right now, as you're no doubt 20-something and living with mom and dad. But give it a decade or so, you'll most likely be married, have a kid or two, with a house and mortgage. When that day comes, I highly doubt you'll be posting on a message board how great life is. Especially after some 20-something year olds come along who are willing to work for even less than what you make, and airline management is more than happy to shift the flying to them.

Absolutely right.........

Newsflash: PAY SUCKS EVERYWHERE! Not just my outfit but yours (majors) as well, I'm sure you knew that. It's (the industry) never going to go back to the Eastern and Pan Am heydays..NEVER! We can rally and hold hands all we want and hope for a turnaround but let's face reality, what my dad made at Braniff back in the days is not happening anymore.

I can (A) cry and ***** about it all day like some of my old captains do for the entire 4 days :rolleyes:, or
I can (B) try to make the best of what I have, enjoy my job, and thank god I don't make 5$ foot longs for a living.

You have to realize, the majority of the newbies in this industry has never had what you had in your heyday. We NEVER had pensions. We NEVER got $300/hr to fly one leg a day and have 7 flight attendants (under 30 and hot mind you) follow us around like the master aviators we are. We NEVER flew a flight where it was mandatory to wear a suit and get get meals served on fine china. I could go on, but I won't. Bottom line, I LOVE MY JOB..Ooops, almost said career. I used to wanna do my time and then go to a major like the majority of my regional peers but to be honest, I don't mind staying where I'm at, topping out in the low 100's, OK trips and great QOL. The majors?? You can have it. Now, overseas is a whole different ballgame.

PS: I am married and have a mortgage BOTH of which I budgeted for on my measly salary. No ex wife (flight attendant) and child support (pilot error) also helps the situation :o

Ahhh, but no 70 seaters or it would be worse. At least CAL is replacing some of the parked jets with new 737ng's. I think there is a huge difference.

First off, never is a really, really long time.

Second, why do you underestimate yourself?

Third, no, pay doesn't suck everywhere. Compare your w2 with Lufthansa with various other international carriers.

Fourth, please stay as far away from the people that negotiate your contract for you as you can, and even further away from management, I don't want any of them hearing you say you're perfectly happy and completely unwilling to fight for better wages.

One last thing: Don't be surprised when we do everything we possibly can to regain the flying we lost to the rj's.

I've been at chq for over 3 years and would quit in this industry to work for a major with threat of furlough. with all the "great qol", this job is only gonna be here as long as the company can get a contract. sure now it's good, but how long before majors get sick of the outsourcing and take it back? soon i hope, that means i'll leave here quicker. 1 day at UAL would be better than 3 years here...this place runs like mickey mouse on crack.

It all comes back to the money, folks. 20 year olds will underbid your mainline salary and get the flying. PERIOD. The only way it will end is if it becomes more of a liability (for qualitative reasons) to outsource than to go in house. But, I doubt that will happen, look at AA and Eagle.

I don't think there are many people looking for regional jobs for the sake of regional jobs. Some of us are AA, UA, CHQ, TSA, etc, but we are all looking primarily after #1 and have decided to try to put bread on the table by flying for a living. This industry has historically been a tough one to enter. You have to pay your dues for a long time before moving ahead. How much you pay depends upon the demand for pilots at the time. In the current environment, if you want a job at a major, you have to go to a regional to get there. Its really the only viable way to build quality time efficiently. I mean, last time I checked it was pretty darn expensive to rent a jet from your local FBO to build time.

Most regional guys would say "buh bye" to their regionals in a split second if they were offered a job at a mainline. So, I doubt you'll ever find a regional guy who knocks the desire to have mainline companies do THEIR OWN flying, because that means more jobs at the mainline, more demand for pilots at that mainline, and in turn less dues to pay to get there. I haven't seen a lot of loyalty out there on behalf of pilots as regards their companies (except perhaps WN), most will jump ship in the bat of an eye in search for a better QOL. This is especially true regarding the jump from regional to mainline.

The problem is with all the elements that make business business. It is human nature to slap labels on other people or groups and then to chase "the people in the black hats", but it really isn't that way in reality. We all chose to try to fly for a living, we all want good QOL, we all (more or less) look after #1 before looking after the other guy (hence competition), and thats just the way it is. Because of this, it makes this industry seem "dog eat dog", egos fly, etc. There will probably always be more applicants than jobs available. Aviation has that sex appeal and people run after it. No matter how good you are there will always be someone wanting your job with a similar or better resume than you. Managements use this to twist our arm and coupled with the individual desires to succeed and find a good QOL, pilots are willing to take the jobs that are offered at the time. I mean, Mesa and GoJet are even staffed.

My point in a few words is that we are all after the same goal, all do the same job, all look the same (more or less). Add the sex appeal to be a pilot and the resulting flood of applicants, then add to that management's money making maneuvers (creation of low paying outsourced regional jobs) and you get a perfect recipe for where we are today, or should I say, where we were before oil began its viking departure. Now that oil is up, many of us are being thrown on the streets.

The sad part about is that there are so many players in the game that a UA or CAL, etc mainline pilot who has really already "paid his dues" is cast out on the street, whereas the new RJ guy with a year seniority is safe (for now anyway). If mainlines did their own flying, the increased size of the seniority lists would make things a bit more fair.

As much as I think ALL of us would like to see scope taken back... its sorta like sex..... you just cant stop.....

I seriously doubt scope will ever be taken back in any meaningful way. The dynamic of this business has been changing for 20 years. American "FLAG" carriers such as UAL, DAL/NW, CAL etc.... are probably destined to increase their international flying and ONLY fly high profit domestic flights... everything else is/or will be relegated to the National/Jet carriers such as SKW, XJT, RAH and the JET Blues and AIRTrans of the world. It is what it is....

I think plenty of regional guys today are willing to "shut it down" rather than continue down the path we are...... And when this tier of companies increase their pay... and the big guys do the same down the road... guess what....we will still be complaining that we are getting paid less than them... etc...

Good luck to all......

I don't think so.......

AAflyer:rolleyes:

Geez.... You seem to be getting a hard on from that.... Of course you are happy, you are flying a MAINLINE aircraft, on MAINLINE routes..

If there are any RJ jobs to have!!! EVERYONE is hurting. Furloughs are coming ALMOST EVERYWHERE!!!
NetJets is looking good (again).?

How many seats does the Q400 have?

It happened before that. Your scope clause was sealed tight and the company couldn't have UAX's with jets. The company said that if the pilots played ball, they would get more 747-400' and "after all, which would you rather fly, that or an RJ? Just let us buy them some RJ's but we can't afford both". Turns out it was a lie, go figure. The pilots voted yes and how many -400's have you gotten since then? None, and they went ahead and financed RJ's for ACA anyhow. Check your early '90's union history.

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Are you independently wealthy? Do you have a sugar momma? If so, the following doesn't apply to you. But what do you do with the QOL being a 170 FO? Go visit your vineyard in Tuscany? Go sail your yacht to the Bahamas? Go drive your Porche around?

This is the most disturbing one of all. Because I'm sure that thing sure is shiny.

Because being the FO, you have ALL the say in who gets to ride on YOUR jumpseat, right?

Compare YOUR W2 to a LH, AF, or KLM pilot. A U.S. "legacy" CA's pay is lame, your going to compare an RJ pilot's?

Check my history? I was there! The RJ vote was in 1997, not "early 90's hstory". The agreement was for 50 seaters and their number was tied to the number of mainline aircraft flying. Again, IT WAS THE BANKRUPTCY that erased the scope. Basically allows unlimited 70 seaters as long as UAX block hours do not exceed mainline block hours. It is a license to steal, and in fact stole thousands of mainline jobs and allows 170Homie to brag about his state of the art Replacement Jet.

My pay may be lame, but at least I don't have to pay the mortgage on RJ pay......yet.

Props are for boats. But seriously, you gonna fly a Q400 from IAH to ORD?

Nothing is guaranteed. Just ask the guys that left good pilot jobs at UPS, FDX, and SWA in the 1990's because they "won the lottery" and got hired at a major airline about guarantees. Perhaps you need a little more experience and the benefit of hindsight to properly gauge this industry. I am sure you would love to shortcut the system and start flying the 190 at the expense of a mainline pilot's job. In the 1980's there was alot of that going on. Only then it was called being a scab.

You're completely missing my point. I agree, our pay sucks...just ask my wife. What I'm trying to make him understand is that it doesn't have to be this way. The idea that 'descent salaries are gone forever' is a bunch of crap in my book. We'll get better pay when we step up and demand better pay.

...And you all have completely missed my point. Like I said in my FIRST post, I am not gloating, bragging, insert verb here_________. I have nothing but respect for the (mainline) guys who have paved the way but let's make one thing clear. I was not in the meeting when management (or lack there of) approved the planes I fly or the routes i'm on. I DID NOT steal any route structure or installed 70+ seaters on those routes. I simply applied to a company that happens to supply that to mainline carriers.

When I said I am happy being where I am and have no intention of going mainline, I meant just that. I do not speak for every RJ driver out there. Why would I want to go to a mainline carrier, further my risk of fulrough, be on reserve for a year plus, wait for my # to be called a decade later for upgrade etc. for a few bucks more and a worse QOL.

Be CLEAR, I am NOT bragging about a freakin' plane, who cares! Oh, and I DO want more money and contract perks, we all do, and I would be the first one in line with sticks and signs to make sure we ALL get what we deserve. I was just stating that I love my job, love what I do, and i'm tired of people trying to take the simple joys left in this industry from me by trying to make me feel the recipricol. Sorry for the rant, gotta go fly and love it at the same time.

I don't think this is true for most regional pilots. For sure some but most not. At least not in its entirety. I believe the writer is on the E170 which would be a stretch to call it a regional aircraft. Most of us don't fly those. Air Canada added it to their mainline fleet which is where it belongs.

If you think that unpleasant things that happen at a legacy WON'T happen to you at a regional, you might be in for a shock later on.

Hopefully not, but to think a regional pilot is impervious to woes of a mainline guy, well........

Whoa.. Who said anything about safe. No one is safe in this enviroment. At this time it's just a little "safer" than the mainline, right now. And I would like to move on to bigger and better someday, but for me, bigger and better is Emirates or Cathay not Delta or United.