Min Fuel

Do you use a time? For instance, some use :45 as a min fuel calculation and less than :30 for emergency fuel.

And too this will include some factors for the aircraft. Some machines will have cautions that at low fuel states, the fuel pumps may be uncovered and cavitate.

Min Fuel

Yes, from USAF experience, familiar with 'bingo' and emerg fuels.

And yes, min fuel is a loose term and for that reason I am trying to determine what the average line pilot uses. That amount will vary but what does the average line pilot use for min fuel and what does s/he expect?

I have declared min fuel a few times and it was interesting how the controllers responded. One asked what airport was I diverting to.

Also, in the ASRs, there are some reports of controllers declaring flights as 'emergency fuel' when there was no declaration by the crew. ??

Min Fuel

I am familiar with part 91, 135 and 121 for dispatch and the considerations for dispatch.
"The definition is in the AIM.
There is also no definition of emergency fuel in the FARs."

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat.../info08004.pdf



Yes, I have the PDF from the FAA on my desk. But it is an INFO for operators and not an FAR.

[quote ]** This is where I became very suspicious:

"Situation:
You have been dispatched from KATL to KLAX. Your flight plan is for FL350 but due to turb/wx/ATC, you are initially given FL290. You are over VUZ (Vulcan) in Alabama, level at FL290. You run your fuel log and see that you will arrive at KLAX with min fuel. What do you do while over VUZ? (or if you want, EMB-145 KATL-KPHL.. and over GSO)

Where did you determine the flight level numbers going from Atlanta to Los Angeles? [/quote]

Suspicious of what? And FL350 is a relatively routine altitude for long distance flights and a fat 737 is not going to be much higher than that initially. I know on the Airbus we didn't get much higher than that initially.

So, what would you flight plan at? And as for the route, change it. Change it to CLT-LAX (USAir) or BUR-MHT (SW)and we will put you in a 737-NG with winglets and plan it at 380 but you can't get it due to moderate turbulence. SAN-ORD(United). I would suggest a BBJ but this is an airline forum. Does that make it better?


I

Quote:

f you want something for the newspaper:

"Pilots' first concern is safety, the amount of fuel they carry to landing is based primarily on that with a degree or two of comfort level, experience, judgement and good business practices."

Not for a newspaper and I am not looking for "airplane runs out of fuel story". The only two I know of are the United in PDX and the Avianca in New York and that is not the issue. But everyone is carrying less fuel these days than when I started a long time ago.

FWIW, with more than a few type ratings, experience in gen/av, military and airlines ops, I know what I think about min fuel and emergency fuel. I know what I will do but the story is not about what I think or will do. It is a sampling from the ranks. I don't need someone citing FARs and FAA info letters. I have that.

Min Fuel

Why wouldn't you trust the fuel indications unless they are on the MEL? An yes, I know that many PHs say that at low states, fuel indications can be inaccurate. For instance the old -135 had a note that indications below 1500lbs were not reliable and I've seen that.

I jumpseated a long time ago on Frontier, not the one now flying but the one with Convairs and 737-200s and we took off for ABQ on a short flight with less fuel than I wanted to land with. They were very comfortable with the fuel state. So yes, some companies operate thinner than others. And some Capts take lower fuel loads than others.

So what do you fly and what is your min?

And do you frequently talk to your dispatcher before departing or do you just sign the releases and go with the planned fuel?

Min Fuel

You would be surprised at how often I hear that you have to have :45 in the tanks when you land.

Your points are all well taken. And such arguments are what I am looking for. There is legal, personal and company as you note.

Thanks for the response.

StillLearning

I no longer contest your aviation prowess. I was merely providing references for you. I apologize. Sounds like you have all the infomation you need for an article.

Please keep the TCAS on TA/RA on that westbound flight at 350.

Min Fuel

Why wouldn't it be okay if hard IFR? What is the reserve fuel?

Quote:

Again it's a judgement call made in the moment, not by some journalist fishing for a story.

Quote:

Not every 'journalist' is looking to bust someone's chops. Some of us are line pilots first and writers second. And I hope the min fuel call is not made in a moment. I know what my min fuel is before I close the doors.

Min Fuel

Was.

Actually line pilot first and writer second. I don't 'journal'. And for me it is a cockpit, not a flight deck to show how long I have been aviating.

It is not a matter of being treated professionally by ATC but I had not read or known of a flight being declared an 'emergency fuel' by a controller until I read through some of the ARSs.

And if I add my name or the magazine to the post, does that validate anything? At this point, let me say it is a known publication and I would not besmirch its reputation with a slam or goofy story.

Min Fuel

I understand some of the caution but as noted, I am not out to bust anyone's chops or make anyone look foolish or to write a scare story. Fuel is the greatest expense and everyone is carrying less these days. When I started, it was 'load allowable' which meant take it up to max weight.

In the ASRs, pilots declare min fuel and then divert rather than continue to destination. ?? Also, some ASRs report crews are reluctant to declare emergency fuel and then some say nothing and then declare emergency fuel. The questions arise then as to why they didn't first declare min fuel.

The few times I declared min fuel, I had to decline 'best forward' and had to remind the controllers at times I was min fuel, especially when changing freqs. I am not disparaging anyone but there are gaps in the system.

As for FL350 being the wrong altitude, my error. I will file a NASA

dckozak

Every thing that runs on fuel will and does run out. I did it in cars when I was young and poor and the gauge was iffy. I ran out of fuel running an outboard on my dingy while transporting my family from my sailboat to shore last week, the difference being I stopped in the water and refilled with a Jerry can, not turned into a multi million dollar glider. As far as gauges go, I'd rather not trust that the last 1% of fuel is really there, when the downside of being wrong is more tragic than floating in an anchorage.

My aircraft and my company put min fuel (at landing) for dispatch at 15000 lbs and (by their interpretation) emergency fuel at 10000lbs (about 30 min). I think many capts will bingo to an alt at the point they would land at the alt with 15k. I will go lower, but not below 10k to land at alt. I will let the wx at the alt and the location of that alt along with my familiarity of that airport and other intangibles dictate landing with something between 10 and 15k.

As far as talking to dispatch. I'll do so when I feel they either could or should know something I don't have access to (big picture) or to educate them on something I think they either don't see from reports or believe they are too optimistic about. I've never had a disagreement, but than I haven't made a name for myself pushing (them) to give me fuel they didn't feel was warranted.