⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

So the unions are "dead" because of the global economy? I fly to China regularly and if what you're saying is correct, very soon I will have no health care whatsoever and will be making around $18,000 a year to fly a B75 & 76 all over the world.

It is precisely BECAUSE of the global economy that we need unions even more not the other way around. I am for a global economy but one that's fair. We can never compete with third world countries in a 'global economy' according to your model.

Instead we should demand they get better benefits or no trade or at the very least that they aren't allowed to fly our routes with pilots from third world countries. Trust me, if it wasn't for the unions at other airlines and companies even the job you have right now where I know you think you're being underpaid (I agree ) wouldn't be available to you. Instead Mr. Chen Lee would gladly be doing your flying for about 2/3 less than what you're getting right now! ...and he'd be celebrating the enormous pay raise from where he's coming from and would even be able to send some money back home to support his family...

Those are facts; unions ARE the reason to airlines for example not being able to outsource intra-US flying to foreign nationals. Think Dell calling centers...

Do you really want that to happen to our industry too?

Being a staunch Republican I can't believe I'm defending unions here but those are the facts, we need good management and good, common sense business regulations but also rules that protect us, the workers...

It's a delicate balance and I think it's easier if hundreds or maybe thousands of employees of an airline negotiate with their management with some kind of representation…

Just my 1/2˘


Zai jian or bai bai... ; )

EatinRamen

I am one of those pilots who likes to believe that a union is a necessary evil. American workers very much need their own representation to keep our interests protected - especially in this global economy. Things like scope clauses, seniority, job protection, safety, and reasonable work rules are things every pilot should be happy has been reasonable protected by unions.

Unfortunately, some union members tend to take on a combative stance against their own company and start making unreasonable demands. For the life of me, I can't understand why the pilots at SWA are asking for COLA raises right now. With the economy in a recession, and SWA taking a huge hit to their load factors, it might be more prudent to keep pay as is and revisit the issue when things are in an upswing. These die-hard union members choose to not believe the facts of the real world and try to squeeze every nickel and dime from their employers.

Should we be getting paid more? Absolutely! Everyone knows pilots make less today than they did just 10 years ago. The trick is trying to find that balance between what is reasonable and what is "pricing ourselves out of the market" as Yoke Jerker said.

So what's the solution? Management and organized labor doesn't trust one another, so coming to a consensus on pilot pay is difficult. And if left up to management alone, I would be willing to bet that they would exploit the cheapest forms of labor out there. Cheap labor sources such as outsourcing all their flying to regional carriers who they can pit against each other in contracts that must be renewed every few years. Or outsourcing crew jobs to foreigners for 1/3 the pay like AV8OR wrote.

The solution isn't easy, but unions are vital in protecting our interests and our careers for the long run.

Herman

hao hao hao... shea shea nee woda pung yeoo! av8or old buddy, the thing i love about you most (other than that hooters paint job on your space shuttle) is that you are always right! now please go back to work; there are only 4 days left and santa claus is counting on you. so am i. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

Santa Claus was sitting on my airplane just a few days ago, talk about "heavy"!

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

Where did you learn Mandarin?

captjns

No. it’s the immigration laws and the ability to obtain work visas. Unions being the tail, don’t wag the dog which is the government.

When work visas were easy to obtain, there were numerous foreign nationals who came over from Europe, learned to fly, and got jobs with regional carriers, and eventually moved to the majors… which are union carriers.

Gulfstream, and COMAIR Academys were major sponsors of such programs.

yoke jerker

yeah, yeah, yeah, ...that's english for BS... Look, no one said you have to give up benefits and 18k is absurd so get real.

are you a brownshirt? my friend should be getting his customary 8 weeks off in a row this time of year. he backs up two weeks off a month and takes 2 of his 6 weeks paid.... you guys have it rough.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

Not exactly...

Immigration laws have not changed for years and are almost identical on the other side of the pond. You're correct when you say that many European nationals moved here to pursue their flying career but the vast majority moved back once they gained some experience, type ratings, etc.

Also, they were all legal immigrants who took massive student loans in their home countries and were spending literally thousands of dollars on their education and their flight training here in the US which greatly benefited our economy. None of this of course applies to illegal immigration where frankly there are no rules...

While we are talking about foreign pilots coming our way lets not forget about the numerous American pilots who went to Asia, Europe, Africa and other places to do the exact same thing. In fact, a few years back I used to correspond with a Utah native who flew for a Scandinavian airline. We don't hear so much about them because most do or did it only for a period of time (during a furlough for example) and then go/went back home.

At this very moment there must be hundreds of US pilots flying for JALways, Cathay Pacific, ANA Cargo, Emirates, etc, etc.
Pilots after all are the Vikings of today and will travel all over the world to do what they love the most - explore.

European and other foreign pilots working here legally is not what I meant by outsourcing because those pilots have to get the very same benefits as their US born co-workers and the same applies to American pilots working overseas.

Outsourcing would be taking a pilot from Vietnam for example and paying him or her $10/hour to fly ATL to JFK and back simply because it's cheaper that way. In the US you need a work permit first in order to get a job; many countries in Europe will do it the other way around, they'll give you a work permit as soon as you find a job - sort of reverse order however you still need a work permit and a job at both places.

Each country has somewhat different rules but my main contention here is that just as the different governments talk and negotiate with each other, the unions in those countries should stay involved too because they need to make sure the competition is fair.

So to summarize it: it’s not really immigration laws but rather “cabotage rights” which are currently protecting us but they could very well be hurting us in the future if we let it happen.

From Wikipedia:
Cabotage is the transport of goods or passengers between two points in the same country. Originally starting with shipping, cabotage now also covers aviation, railways and road transport. Cabotage is "trade or navigation in coastal waters, or, the exclusive right of a country to operate the air traffic within its territory. Cabotage is commonly used as part of the term "cabotage rights," the right of a company from one country to trade in another country. In aviation terms, it is the right to operate within the domestic borders of another country. Most countries do not permit cabotage by foreign companies, although this is changing within Europe for member states of the European Union.

Those rights were/are vehemently opposed by the unions; if it weren't for their opposition foreign pilots earning foreign levels of compensation (usually lower if from Asia/Africa) would already be a reality…


Full disclosure… I am one of the people you were speaking of.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

Amazing he gets 6 weeks since 5 is the maximum and that's after some 20 years of service? I never said we have it rough, in fact I'm pretty happy here however don't confuse facts with fiction.

We can move our days off by bidding reserve for example which in general is 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off. So if he has lets say 4 weeks of vacation and he makes sure that he's off the 2 weeks before his vacation and the 2 weeks after his vacation then he's off for 6 weeks. Sounds great, huh? However, that could also mean that prior to his extended time off or maybe after it (or both) he'll be away from home 4 weeks in a row. He sounds like he's pretty senior so I'm sure it wouldn't happen to him but have you ever been away from home 4 weeks in a row while at Pace?

Also, you're confusing our time off with our vacation. When I was at Pace seems like most of the time my schedule was something like 4 days on and 3 days off (could have changed since then). So basically on average we got 10 to 12 days off a month. If you bid reserve here you get 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off so basically you get ~15 days off, only a few days extra from where you stand. If you put those days back to back sure it looks like 'vacation' to you but it's the normal days off that you enjoy every 4-5 days while we do it every two weeks (if we bid 2 week periods).

Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy here but to ridicule someone elses position by implying he/she has it "so much better" only shows you're running out of arguments.

After all, I was where you are now not that long ago AND I felt the very same way about protecting our rights then as I do now. We have to make sure we don't outsource our profession because if we do, no one, including you will be safe. Unions are like lawyers, no one wants them until they need one.

In my opinion no one can compete against the American worker in a global economy because the US is known for innovation, knowledgeable workers and some very bright minds however it can only work if the competition is fair. Without the leverage some unions give us on that issue the 'global competition' would be more like a supermarket sale of US goods and services.

That's all I'm saying.

captjns

Your observation about work visas is wishful thinking. Work visas are not automatically issued by virtue of a job offer. As a condition of employment in the EU, one must be able to secure a work visa, without assistance of the contracting agency. Many other countries around he world are the same when it comes to work visas. Contracting agency(ies) usually provide you with a list of immigration attorneys. It is your responsibility to obtain the visa, and you will be out of pocket for attorney's services.

Before a formal offer is made by any contracting agency, a work permit must be secured. In European countries, many prerequisites need to be satisfied before a work visa will be granted. Being a pilot does not automatically qualify one for a work visa. If the process takes to long to get that visa, guess what... you are out of a few thousand dollars, and may no job.

Most countries around the world couldn't give a rat's a$$ about what their unions think... again that's most. There are countries Europe that do care.

But then again, you would have to be an expat working in many continents around the world for many years to understand this.