CaptainCarl

Dude, do you have any idea what you are talking about? The reason we young bucks fly for slave wages is because:

1) The contract that was agreed to by whoever was negotiating it at the time, totally ignored the fact that not all first officers are young and single with nothing else in the world to worry about.

2) If we get involved with the Union (if we have one), those rat b******s who run our airline will definitely be gunning for us.

Why aren't the top guys looking out for the young guys? You guys hold most of the influence. We will follow your lead. If this industry is going to change for the better, its gotta start with the guys at top. Everyone else will follow suit.

seaav8tor

Dude, I started flying in 1976. I have never worked outside aviation so it's the only thing I know first hand. I have watched the industry go from a well respected place to work (all jobs) to one where the employees and the passengers both despise going to the airport.

With load factors in the 80-90s now vs 50-60s back then, a RJ pilot like yourself creates the lift a DC-9, 737, or 727 did back in the day. YOU are willing to do it for slave wages. At the end of the day the pilot job goes to the lowest bidder, you. It's not the other way around (ie those who went before you were supposed to get you a better contract). That sounds like a great plan but it will never work. Despite any temporary contract gain the "Market" for pilot labor will prevail and the job will go again to the lowest bidder over time. As long as pilots continue to set the bar lower and lower the pay will continue to slide lower and lower as it has over the last 30+ years. Nothing has stopped the decline and nothing will unless all pilots wake up one day and say "NO". "I will not give away my services for inadequate compensation"

Based on the last 30 years I would be willing to bet that will not happen. As such pilot pay for all positions will continue to decline with those at the top taking the biggest hit. Why? Can't go much lower at the bottom because you hit Federal Minimum Wage and because of your demonstrated willingness to work for nothing. Now that thousands have jet experience from the regionals there will be enough takers to fill the seats at the mainlines with half price pilots. Look at the top pay today. Cut it in half. That's what you will see on your paycheck when you finally get there.

By the way, now that I'm there I see less than half of what it was when I set my sights on the job. For each pilot generation the end pay will be half (or less) by the time you get to the goal post. The bigger your time frame (ie 30 years vs 5 yrs) the more obvious the trend.

Wasatch Phantom

CaptainCarl,

The reason that the infamous RJ WAS a financially viable option is because the wages at the regional carriers are so low. It is the pilots at the regionals that accept and work for those wages.

Here's something for you to think about: A friend of mine was jumpseating on Skywest. The new-hire first officer asked him "Does it bother you that we're flying to all these cities that you no longer fly to?" His response was "Well, does it bother you that ten years ago I was flying to those same places making $100,000.00 a year more than you're making?"

SaltyDog

Fred Smith and Braden Cox wrote "The 1978 Airline Deregulation Act partially shifted control over air travel from the political to the market sphere. The Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB), which had previously controlled entry, exit, and the pricing of airline services, as well as intercarrier agreements, mergers, and consumer issues, was phased out under the CAB Sunset Act and expired officially on December 31, 1984. The economic liberalization of air travel was part of a series of “deregulation” moves based on the growing realization that a politically controlled economy served no continuing public interest. U.S. deregulation has been part of a greater global airline liberalization trend, especially in Asia, Latin America, and the European Union"

So Seaav8tor, since you witnessed the deregulation era first hand, why did you let the contracts decline so much? Why didn't you control the market forces to retain the flying at the 'legacy' level? Why did you let Crandall et al drive a wedge in the pilot group?
We all know why, you nor anyone else could realistically expect the market to sustain 40-50% load factors. Business demanded high load factors or perish. Yet you blame the folks for coming into the profession for taking the wage that you and I left for them in contracts (major and regional) You and I are to blame as much as the young bucks accepting the wage we ratified in a contract.
Also, if "they" are to be blamed for driving our Captain wages so low, then the logically you and I are to blame to continue to fly for half what we did in the late 70's. So you and I are no more principled than those you blame. <g> or we wouldn't have continued to fly for so little.

CaptainCarl

And just what the heck do you think my interview was like? "Hello CaptainCarl, we would like to offer you a job with our airline. By the way, what would you like your pay to be?" I didn't have any say in what my pay was going to be. I was smart enough to figure out though that if I don't take this job, the next sucker in line will. Then what? I'm back to instructing and sitting on my @ss waiting for that fabled regional that pays right. There's no such thing, dude. So, if your so smart, what should I have done? What would you recommend? Come down here and walk a mile in any regional pilot's shoes, during the 21st century, and then come back and tell me I willingly work for slave wages.

CaptainCarl

Thank you very much SaltyDog.

aa73

ZINGG!! Spot on.

seaav8tor

That is exactly why the pay will continue down.

For decades I bought into "Oh the industry is cyclical, the pay will come back" And, in fact, the industry is cyclical, and it does come back. The kicker is each up cycle is less than each down cycle and over a career by the time you reach for the brass ring you will find out 50% or more of what you thought you would have is gone. This is quite insidious and the trend is not apparent until you have been through several cycles. By that time it's too late to move on to another career and without enough to retire all you can hope for is a raise in the retirement age. Perhaps 65 was the only recent gain for us old timers. It shortened the gap from fly-die. And don't start in about lack of planning unless you have started over at the bottom of the list at least 5 times. Without the ability to move laterally there is no planning in this industry. Going to the bottom over and over makes planning impossible. No other highly specialized labor force has this draconian level of reboots as many are discovering right now.

Spanky189

We sure do have some Paulson clones here that think they know everything,..
I don't but do have 2 cents to give.

After deregulation, which none of us could control, the addition of additional flying and, eventually, RJs, caused the pool of qualified pilots to go up exponentially.

Management realized this and started trying to drive down contractual wages because the old specialization wasn't so specialized anymore.

Unions fought this as much as possible refusing to acknowledge the dillution of the 'talent pool'.

Management fought for the 80-90% load factors vs. the 40-50% to compete and drive competition out.

Old guys want the premium pay/life style that their prior Cappys had.

Young guys want more than $20/hr.

Old guys run the union and tell everyone to hold the line (for their benefit and "maybe" the younger guys in 20 years)

To complete the circle, the New Guys need to realize that the Old Guys, with peers in the union, will negotiate contracts to cover their butts and managements but don't really care about the guys 10 years down the road.

NOT ORIGINALLY INTENDED TO SOUND LIKE, oh, A EAST VS WEST THING BUT FITS PRETTY WELL.

willflyforcash

I just love how alot of senior guys act like martyrs for the industry! The act as though us regional guys are selling out the industry, and if they were in our shoes, they would have stood strong and refused the jobs!

HA! When some of you mainline guys were at the regional level, wasnt pay around $800 per month as an f/o? And didnt you have to have around 3000 hours to even be considered for hiring? And prior to that, weren't you flying checks at night in terrible equiptment for virtually free or instructing for pennies? Please dont forget where you came from and please dont act like you would stand strong and turn down a regional RJ job if you were at this level.

Finally, please also dont forget who created the RJ jobs. Your unions! Your unions gave relief on scope to benefit themselves and that is the only reason the RJs are here! Did you expect to give scope relief and the jobs not to get filled? If you want to blame someone, get to the root of the problem .