Hey, KB

If you must go and BTW I don't think you should (enjoy hearing more stories of tail strikes:D ) when is your book going to be out I want to read it? What is the name of it going to be if you can reveal that?

You signed up to post on the forum, you read the forum rules and terms of use. You failed to abide by those those rules and your agreement.

Looks like more of an explanation that you want, but that's the crux. In your case, when we get the threat of legal action [against us] for something that an anonymous user [you] post we do, and will act out of self preservation.

My offer to call you on my dime from Asia stands. I'm more than willing to discuss details with you.

Cheers -

I'm curious, what was the threat of legal action?

Trust me, legal action is no treat!

what "legal action", by whom, and for what?

The guy offered to explain it to you on the phone, on his dime. Be gracious, and talk to him. I think it's a pretty decent offer, and it's a far cry better than the way they did Miserable User over at that other place.





- The truth only hurts if it should -

Change of subject. Forwarded from a newsletter to which I subscribe. Very well written, I thought. --When I came to Delta so many years ago it was one of the greatest days of my life. I had "made it." I had "grabbed the gold ring." I was finally in the position I always wanted. I was a DELTA Pilot!!!

Only Delta pilots knew that feeling. So, what happened? Well, we all know the demise. We all know who is to blame. But what about the strike? How can we do that to all the other employees and retirees? So here is my perspective.

First, I do not want to strike. I will, in fact, not cross the picket line. There is no point. No matter how many cross it won't help. It will only result in a lifetime of harassment (just ask any Eastern Scab). The only hope for Delta is NO strike. So why are we doing this? Why did 94% vote to strike?

Well, here is my humble and very personal "take" on the whole insanity.

To put it simply, most of the pilots are just plain tired. We have been held personally responsible by EVERYONE for EVERYTHING! From Ron Allen's "Leadership 7.5" to the current situation. We are considered (and called) "greedy," "whiners," "overpaid premadonnas," etc. And as I read the letter from the unnamed L1011 Capt. I sensed some of the same.

Oh, I know he doesn't "blame" us. But he certainly indicated it was our "responsibility" to ensure his retirement isn't affected. I certainly appreciate that. After all, I have already lost 62% of my pay and benefit package, and over 50% of my retirement. I also am fully aware that no matter how much more I give, my retirement (and yours) will be liquidated. I will end up with less than 30% of what I earned.

But Let me explain where the letter insinuates I am "responsible" for him, and why I take exception. He states that we, the pilots, hold the cards for " for thousands of others who weren’t dealt a playing hand in this game." Well, in fact Grinstein is the one who actually holds those cards. And in what I am sure is a very unintentional manner, the author simply restates what so many believe, that it is, yet again, the "fault of the pilots."

You see, Grinstein refuses to do what has been done for 77 years, negotiate. ALPA has already given 50% of what they asked for and, amazingly, is still trying to get management to negotiate in good faith. And all this after our "do it once and do it right" give back of $1billion per year in 2004 to stave off bankruptcy! And what did management do? Why, reduced fares and frittered away the 52% of our contract that we gave them, and filed bankruptcy anyway. And even before they filed they stated they were going to reject our contract! So much for our "do it once, do it right" investment of $1billion.

And what about the letter of agreement regarding that giveback and bankruptcy? What about the "equal" sharing of the pain by our creditors, suppliers, etc.? And they wonder why we don't trust them.

So what about the "view from the cockpit?"

I fly with 10 year F/O's. NONE of them are staying. Strike, don't strike, it doesn't matter. After 10 years the 767 F/O makes about $80,000 per year. They can make that on the outside, and be home for Christmas, birthdays, holidays, school plays, etc. They, to a man, are no longer willing to put in the long (and getting longer) days and nights and give up their family life for mediocre compensation, little hope of moving up, no retirement (they get basically none regardless), and most of all, NO RESPECT or Appreciation for their work and sacrifice. This lack of respect was painfully noted when Chief Pilot Jim Graham stated that if we strike the "next words out of [our] mouth will be 'do you want fries with that." I suspect even without my Masters Degree I can find something other than flipping burgers.

But I certainly don't want to strike. It just isn't up to me. It's up to Gerry and the boys. All they have to do is stop blaming us and begin addressing the real issues, fuel, fares, and service.

They actually hold the cards. We only hold one.

By the way, as a 767 Capt. I make less than an electrician. I make less than many of you do in retirement. But worst of all, I barely make more than an Airtrans capt. Our MD 88 Capts. Make $20 LESS than an Airtran Capt. We are less than everyone except JetBlue, and airplane to airplane we are about the same as them. And that's with NO FURTHER give backs. So the question is, how much more can we give? We are already at the bottom of the industry. My guess is it isn't the pilots, it's something else.

So I hope that I can, in a few short years, join all of you in retirement. I hope the bill passes Congress allowing me to get a PBGC retirement of $47,000 at age 60 vice $31,000 because that will be what I get when they liquidate the pilot retirement (and they will no matter what). And I hope there is Social Security for me. But I think that, at the very least, the years of saying "goodbye" at Delta will come in handy when I become a Greeter at Wal Mart.

As for the strike, it is unthinkable to me. Just as unthinkable as Bankruptcy was.

I loved my time at Delta. I hope it continues. To all of you who I had the honor of flying with, thank you for the wonderful memories.

This certainly isn't how I thought it would end. But either way, it has simply become a job. I still love flying, and I will until the day I stop. But it's the memories that I have from all of you that I will cherish. Thank you for a wonderful career. I hope that people younger than me can someday recapture some of it. I hope cooler heads prevail and Delta survives.

as do many others here, likely, yet i don't see you "miserable using" them.

so why didn't you just tell me that a month ago instead of hiding behind your software?

and speaking of miserable, what miserable excuse for a human being threatens frigging LAWSUITS over something posted on a bulletin board? it seems to me that THAT'S who you should be dumping since people like that are going to be ongoing problems for everyone else here, not just you and me.

this is an anonymous board, so what is his claim? if he got his little feelings hurt, so what? nobody knows who he is. beyond that, he's full of poo poo. i can't hire him, i can't fire him, he can't be exposed to ridicule other than here on this ANONYMOUS board, i haven't threatened him with bodily harm, and i haven't sexually harassed him so what, exactly, is his claim for damages?

i have to tell you, it's hard to believe you would kowtow to some whiny coward who says his lawyer can beat up your lawyer.

Sorry
 

I am sorry for you, but even your reduced retirement is more than many working pilots wages. Times change, I never had a job that even offered a retirement plan and neither do most other jobs these days. Best of luck.

SkyHigh

Administrator
 

Perhaps you should give us all a summary of the Do's and Dont's on the forum? We all "read" the "rules and terms of use", but some are not attorneys or forgot.

SkyHigh

Bill, I'm hoping to read about an articulate pilot struggling against oppressive web mods- will I see it?

Thanks in advance.

OA84

I've offered to discuss this with you although you only seem intent on complaining and demanding answers. I'll save you a phone call and just say that the bottom line is you're not worth spending the money for ANY civil litigation, merited or not.

Our promise to forum users has always been to protect the anonymity at all costs and we've been true to that promise. The one exception is when said user crosses the line of alleged civil or criminal misconduct, and we have the pleasure of responding to a subpoena or line of questioning that could lead in that direction. We fully cooperate with the courts when such a case arises.

The terms of use and forum rules can help or hinder a user, we do know that they most definitely help us when it comes to self preservation.

All the best

"civil or criminal misconduct"??????

this is rich. i think you need to explain this one since you have now libeled me. maybe i should talk to my lawyer.

and guess what? i called and left you a message last night. i suppose now you don't want to talk to me to back up this **** and bull story about my "civil or criminal miscounduct".

btw, i'm not complaining but i sure as hell am demanding answers. you don't get to cavlierly throw accusations of "civil or criminal misconduct" around without explaining yourself.

There's another place?:confused:

KillBill. You don't own this forum, but the owners can be held legally responsible for your words. Obviously, the owners have had legal action threatened against them because of something you wrote. The best pilot forum on the web for years was shut down because of the very same thing. User A insulted user B , User B filed suit, website owner was taken to court and held responsible for something user A said. Website owner shut down the site.

did you actually read Mr. Paynes post?

You left a key word out of your quote, what I typed was "alleged civil or criminal misconduct". You also mistakenly feel that I'm the guy who has a problem with your posts.

When we are contacted with a complaint about a post, we make a judgement call as to the merit of the claim. If in our opinion a claim is merited, we will act as to reduce our chances of being named as a co-defendant in any potential litigation.

We reserve the right and full authority to pull any post or any user for any reason at any time. That said, I don't take any form of censorship lightly although I'm sometimes required to consider the risk that users present.

If the TOS for this forum are unacceptable to you then don't post, it really is that simple. If you do post, and happen to violate the TOS, don't be surprised if we (the owners of this forum) act to minimize our risk.

All the Best -

Where are all the single pilots????????
 

Hello Gentleman!

My girlfriends and I 27-35 love going to places where pilots hang out. Yes we think pilots are SEXY! We are all professional good lookin women and want to know. Denver area!!! We are thinking about just hanging out at the airport but I told them I'd figure it out. ;)

Count me in
 

This should make for some fun reading the next few days. I would come to Denver except my wife says I have to shampoo the carpet today - damn!

?
 

How can I post that on the major forum and shampooing carpets really sucks!:p

ok, so what was the post and who complained about it? and obviously you DO have a problem since you are taking action against me and not the whiner responsible. i'm finding this entire situation both laughable and apalling; i've never threatened anyone with bodily harm, never threatened to meet them in the alley, never tried to to get anyone fired (even at jet blow), in short, i've never done anything at all, regardless of your terms of service which are not laws as far as i know, that's actionable in any manner so why don't you just point me to the "offending" post? or e-mail it to me?

i'll tell you what; this ass-backwards way you're going about smearing me with allegations of "civil or criminal misconduct" is reprehensible. you want some legal action? try expelling me from this board before i get some answers to these false and baseless accusations. this may be an "anonymous" board but there are several people here that DO know me personally and i have to wonder what they think of me now.

you asked me several times to call you. i finally did and left you my home number. so far i have not heard from you. i thought you wanted to discuss this. or do you prefer to keep smearing me here in public?

when this is all over, i'll probably leave of my own free-will since i have no desire to associate with people who hire lawyers when their feelings get hurt. i also have no desire to participate on a board that uses software to fake network problems to exclude members because they don't like them. i also have no desire to deal with admins who refuse to answer legitimate questions unless they are publically backed into a corner and then defend themselves by alleging "civil or criminal misconduct" by an innocent party.

absolutely astounding what you've done here and you probably don't even realize it yet.

Let it go Kaye. Ummmmmm. Ummmmmmm. Ummmmmmm. Zen.

Denver? Heck ladies, the only thing you'll find in Denver is steers and **eers and United pilots (kinda one and the same thing). Come to Newark and hang out at Schula's. Best dang pilots in the whole dang airline.:D

Just click on new thread, though I would post it in the hanger talk section... Oh if your ever in BOS area count me in too:D I am not a Professional pilot yet just a flight instructor though I'll go buy a uniform and wear it, if it helps;)

To HSLD
 

I do not agree with everything posted by KB; however, I do feel he has the right to know the who, what, when and where of what he is being accused of. Even in our corrupt legal system, one has the right to face his accuser. This does not have to be done in a public forum, but a phone call or private email would certainly be appropriate I would think. Someone's thin skin is no excuse for this.

I must say that it is really disheartening to see the exchanges that are going here :( . I really hope that this issue can be settle quickly and quietly as not to cause any more ill feelings.

atp

I have known you personally for years, big guy. . and STILL love you to death!

This entire episode has been a real eye opener for those of us keeping track. Pretty sick & lame. .if you ask me.
:(

First off, I am married -Sorry.
Second, my airline stopped flying into DEN.
Third-last but not least, 27-35? TOO OLD!!! I hear the clock ticking!!! ;)

still waiting for an explanation from the moderator. and i really want to know who my accuser is.

Read ??
 

Yea, I read it. Did I miss something?

SkyHigh

yep........

the longer this goes with my reputation damaged by your malicious allegations, and with no explanation and and no opportunity to right the wrong done me here, the worse it will be for this board.

Bill, you can set up your own site, comparable to this one, for less than fifty bills a month. It's tougher than you might think.

I've tried it in the past, and I can guarantee you that someone will be upset with you at all times. Spme justified, most not. It just happens.

Why don't you back off? It's really not that big a deal.

skybolt

Bill, we don't know who you are, and don't honestly care about your grievances. Move on, brother!

Get a grip Kill Bill
 

Seriously, are you a grown man? Don't you have anything better to do? Give these admins a break and drop it.

Brown Dog

:D

"reputation?" You mean that of raging megalomaniac with a martyr complex who's never wrong and can't ever seem to let things go? I wouldn't say it's being "damaged" exactly.

Look, I personally enjoy your banter, even though I agree with you on pretty much nothing and generally find your online persona unpleasant at best. I think you add something to this board and I get a kick out of your posts, even when I find myself smiling, shaking my head going "I can't BELIEVE this guy." I hope you stick around.

I do think how this went down was unfortunate and I do feel bad if you're actually hurt by it. But man, end the cringe-fest, settle this privately, and either stay or go. That's about all there is left to this now. In a couple weeks you'll be the only one who remembers.

fine. will the admins please forward me an address where you can accept service?

and for all of you who think this is nothing to be concerned about, perhaps YOU should be accused of "civil or criminal misconduct" on a public internet site and have everyone treat it as no big deal. sorry, but it IS a big deal to me being falsely accused of "civil or criminal misconduct". i have asked for NOTHING except the opportunity to face my accuser and be made aware of what charges are being made against me, you know, just like the constitution guarantees EVERYONE?

you don't know me. stonewalling and ignoring me will not work. and it matters not what any of you think of me or what i'm doing. i'm not letting go until i get the information i'm entitled to.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha
 

Ladies and Gentleman--

I think we've all been duped by this Kill Bill fellow. Does anyone really think a grown adult, an airline pilot at that, would behave in such a childish manner? I think he's pulling a big joke on all of us for his own amusement and probably laughing his arse off. I almost got sucked in. Lawsuits....reputation.....libel....slander....hah ahaha....on an ANONYMOUS website....oh that's good....LOL.

Let's move on to pertinent aviation material guys.

S.B.

Kill Bill,

I don't know what you did to provoke the intial action, but I'm beginning to regret offering what I know about the software. What you've done since may not be alleged (that's a word you keep refusing to read, alleged) civil or criminal misconduct, but it certainly can be characterized as juvenile conduct.

HSLD has offered to talk to you. What more can you ask for?



This is not a newspaper, and the owners are not the Federal Government. You have no First Amendment rights here. It's their turf, their rules. Grab a decaf and relax.






- The truth only hurts if it should -

I was going to say just "amen", but the system requires more words than just that. So .....

Amen! :)