Regionals are underpaid?
11-30-2008, 11:38 AM
#71
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
I am not trying to claim that I know what makes you or anyone else happy. My point is that rather than trying to make yourself happy with something that is not satisfactory a another plan is to use your dissatisfaction to make your situation better.
SkyHigh
SkyHigh
Can't agree with you on the "regional FOs are paid what they're worth" though, particularly the idea of more automation equals less pay. I am now a A320 FO making much more then when I was a EMB-145 FO, and I my work is now EASIER.
11-30-2008, 12:44 PM
#72
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: 17 S.E. of Kedzi
Posts: 71
To answer the OP's question, yes I thing regional pilots are underpaid. I started a thread awhile back in the "money talk" section on realistic pay scales. Even at the captain level the compensation is way to low for the time spent on the job. I also think a reason the hiring criteria was lowered back when is because many people with more time wouldn't fly for what they pay. I sure as hell wasn't willing to. When I was considering a commuter (regional) career the absolute minimums to get hired at the time was 2500 TT with 500 multi.
Guys who used to fly the Dorniers for Midway airline's commuter would start out as FO making about 11K a year. Some I knew would joke that if they left a pay stub in the cabin nobody would get on the plane.
Guys who used to fly the Dorniers for Midway airline's commuter would start out as FO making about 11K a year. Some I knew would joke that if they left a pay stub in the cabin nobody would get on the plane.
11-30-2008, 12:58 PM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,083
My two cents on this thread.
1) I've seen highly qualified fixed wing military pilots go to the regionals in the early to mid 90s when there were few jobs. A few years before that I saw the same type guys get hired by majors without enough hours for an ATP. Timing is everything.
2) Because we're unionized and not commodities, supply and demand doesn't affect wages at the majors. Our earnings are tied to our airlines profitability and our willingness to use leverage. Those who think they are better off without a union to apply that leverage will eventually find they are mistaken. Remember, "The company signs the paycheck, the union fills in the amount." Airline losses and bankruptcy courts have hamstrung us, but it's a cyclical industry.
3) Supply and demand does matter when talking about hiring minimums. In the 60s, before the Vietnam era guys hit the market, civilian only guys were getting picked up by the majors with only a few hundred hours. My point in paragraph one is another, more personal example. Watch how hiring minimums fluctuate during industry expansion and contraction.
4) Automation makes the job easier, but it doesn't make the job easy. We only think it's easy because we've done it for so long. Mother nature, Murphy's Law and the realities of physics are still in play. A V1 cut in a 777 is about the same as a V1 cut in a DC-9. Planes still have to land in a given distance no matter if it's a state of the art 777 or Jurassic age DC-9. In flight situations still require the same decisions. Hiring mins change because of the demand for pilots, not because of automation.
1) I've seen highly qualified fixed wing military pilots go to the regionals in the early to mid 90s when there were few jobs. A few years before that I saw the same type guys get hired by majors without enough hours for an ATP. Timing is everything.
2) Because we're unionized and not commodities, supply and demand doesn't affect wages at the majors. Our earnings are tied to our airlines profitability and our willingness to use leverage. Those who think they are better off without a union to apply that leverage will eventually find they are mistaken. Remember, "The company signs the paycheck, the union fills in the amount." Airline losses and bankruptcy courts have hamstrung us, but it's a cyclical industry.
3) Supply and demand does matter when talking about hiring minimums. In the 60s, before the Vietnam era guys hit the market, civilian only guys were getting picked up by the majors with only a few hundred hours. My point in paragraph one is another, more personal example. Watch how hiring minimums fluctuate during industry expansion and contraction.
4) Automation makes the job easier, but it doesn't make the job easy. We only think it's easy because we've done it for so long. Mother nature, Murphy's Law and the realities of physics are still in play. A V1 cut in a 777 is about the same as a V1 cut in a DC-9. Planes still have to land in a given distance no matter if it's a state of the art 777 or Jurassic age DC-9. In flight situations still require the same decisions. Hiring mins change because of the demand for pilots, not because of automation.
11-30-2008, 01:08 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
Originally Posted by XHooker
My two cents on this thread.
1) I've seen highly qualified fixed wing military pilots go to the regionals in the early to mid 90s when there were few jobs. A few years before that I saw the same type guys get hired by majors without enough hours for an ATP. Timing is everything.
2) Because we're unionized and not commodities, supply and demand doesn't affect wages at the majors. Our earnings are tied to our airlines profitability and our willingness to use leverage. Those who think they are better off without a union to apply that leverage will eventually find they are mistaken. Remember, "The company signs the paycheck, the union fills in the amount." Airline losses and bankruptcy courts have hamstrung us, but it's a cyclical industry.
3) Supply and demand does matter when talking about hiring minimums. In the 60s, before the Vietnam era guys hit the market, civilian only guys were getting picked up by the majors with only a few hundred hours. My point in paragraph one is another, more personal example. Watch how hiring minimums fluctuate during industry expansion and contraction.
4) Automation makes the job easier, but it doesn't make the job easy. We only think it's easy because we've done it for so long. Mother nature, Murphy's Law and the realities of physics are still in play. A V1 cut in a 777 is about the same as a V1 cut in a DC-9. Planes still have to land in a given distance no matter if it's a state of the art 777 or Jurassic age DC-9. In flight situations still require the same decisions. Hiring mins change because of the demand for pilots, not because of automation.
1) I've seen highly qualified fixed wing military pilots go to the regionals in the early to mid 90s when there were few jobs. A few years before that I saw the same type guys get hired by majors without enough hours for an ATP. Timing is everything.
2) Because we're unionized and not commodities, supply and demand doesn't affect wages at the majors. Our earnings are tied to our airlines profitability and our willingness to use leverage. Those who think they are better off without a union to apply that leverage will eventually find they are mistaken. Remember, "The company signs the paycheck, the union fills in the amount." Airline losses and bankruptcy courts have hamstrung us, but it's a cyclical industry.
3) Supply and demand does matter when talking about hiring minimums. In the 60s, before the Vietnam era guys hit the market, civilian only guys were getting picked up by the majors with only a few hundred hours. My point in paragraph one is another, more personal example. Watch how hiring minimums fluctuate during industry expansion and contraction.
4) Automation makes the job easier, but it doesn't make the job easy. We only think it's easy because we've done it for so long. Mother nature, Murphy's Law and the realities of physics are still in play. A V1 cut in a 777 is about the same as a V1 cut in a DC-9. Planes still have to land in a given distance no matter if it's a state of the art 777 or Jurassic age DC-9. In flight situations still require the same decisions. Hiring mins change because of the demand for pilots, not because of automation.
11-30-2008, 01:30 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,943
You can compare this job to a doctor, dentist, lawyer, or whatever else you want. People will always make the comparison but there really are some things that make it different and the responsibilities are far higher in many circumstances.
A day at the office . . .
. . . must be done with care or there are consequences.
This is not an average 9-5 job.
A day at the office . . .
. . . must be done with care or there are consequences.
This is not an average 9-5 job.
11-30-2008, 01:51 PM
#76
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Yep, we screw up we make the Ten O'clock news and maybe section D in the new paper (Obituaries). A doctor screws up, kills some one, he has insurance that will compensate the family. Same with a lawyer. They lives are not on the line, on those whom they represent.
It is a different job. One that needs serious skills to deal with the risk.
It is a different job. One that needs serious skills to deal with the risk.
11-30-2008, 03:13 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 737
Posts: 590
Originally Posted by Inbluskyz
Please correct me if I goof this up. Let's say that the industry average five year captain pay for a 50 seat RJ is $63/hr., that's $1.26 per seat per hour. A five year 777 captain at DAL makes $181/hr. which is $.67 per seat per hour based on a 272 seating capacity. The MD88 is .$96 per seat per hour; MD90 is .$91; 737 is $1.02 (avg); 76/75 is $.71; 764 is $.68 per seat per hour. Average five year 50 seat FO pay is $.76 per seat per hour while mainline ranges between $.42 and $.63 per seat per hour. Based on this scenario, who is overpaid and who is underpaid?
11-30-2008, 03:36 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 767-400
Posts: 797
Originally Posted by Inbluskyz
Please correct me if I goof this up. Let's say that the industry average five year captain pay for a 50 seat RJ is $63/hr., that's $1.26 per seat per hour. A five year 777 captain at DAL makes $181/hr. which is $.67 per seat per hour based on a 272 seating capacity. The MD88 is .$96 per seat per hour; MD90 is .$91; 737 is $1.02 (avg); 76/75 is $.71; 764 is $.68 per seat per hour. Average five year 50 seat FO pay is $.76 per seat per hour while mainline ranges between $.42 and $.63 per seat per hour. Based on this scenario, who is overpaid and who is underpaid?
YouTube - Billy Madison - Everyone is now dumber
12-01-2008, 12:03 PM
#79
On Reserve
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: HOPEFUL XJ CRJ9
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by Inbluskyz
Please correct me if I goof this up. Let's say that the industry average five year captain pay for a 50 seat RJ is $63/hr., that's $1.26 per seat per hour. A five year 777 captain at DAL makes $181/hr. which is $.67 per seat per hour based on a 272 seating capacity. The MD88 is .$96 per seat per hour; MD90 is .$91; 737 is $1.02 (avg); 76/75 is $.71; 764 is $.68 per seat per hour. Average five year 50 seat FO pay is $.76 per seat per hour while mainline ranges between $.42 and $.63 per seat per hour. Based on this scenario, who is overpaid and who is underpaid?
You should ride a bicycle around with one extra seat and take people where they need to go. You would be so rich. Just think of your pay per seat per hour. Man, why didnt I think of that.
12-01-2008, 12:55 PM
#80
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by ILUVCRJ9
You should ride a bicycle around with one extra seat and take people where they need to go. You would be so rich. Just think of your pay per seat per hour. Man, why didnt I think of that.
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