Phantom Flyer

I am not, nor do I pretend to be, an attorney but I don't see how ALPA or the United pilots can prevent this. Being operated under a separate certificate and presumably international law, where is the leverage ? If this new company offers reduced fares over the North Atlantic, the public will respond by buying those tickets. It won't be under "the United brand" and no employees from either carrier will be utilized. Probably the aircraft will be "leased" from Air Lingus and that provides even more insulation.

As much as I hate to say this, that bastard Tilton may have come up with a smart way to sell seats across the pond.

PLEASE....I'm just the piano player...don't shoot me because I hate who he is, what he stands for and what he did to a once proud company. I'm just playing the devil's advocate. Hopefully, he won't be able to see if "fly" but I wouldn't bet on it. Even sadder is the probability that pilots will take those jobs no matter what they pay or the circumstances.

Sad day for this industry.

G'Night Mates.

emj55

Unfortunately, there are a bunch of Republic and Mesa guys who will take this job in a heart beat. This has to be stopped. But probably won't.

seven6

First, its Freedom.

Then, its Gojets.

Now, United is doing the same thing.

I hope and pray the United pilots take a stand against this BEFORE it happens.

Scoop

[quote=gettinbumped;

Don't want to turn this into a whole "you are the ones that relaxed the scope" thread... that's been hashed to death. I'm not blaming UAL pilots for the increase in regional pilots at our expense, and I'm not blaming regional pilots for showing up and flying the new jets. I'm not blaming PILOTS for anything.

Actually if you want to blame someone you could possibly blame the mainline pilots of all the major carriers back in the early 90's. They should have never let a "jet" be flown by a connection carrier which basically opened the whole Pandora's box of SCOPE. Now I realize that hindsight is 20-20, and I was in the military back then so I don't know if it was a tactical error which grew into a strategic mistake, or on the other hand maybe there was nothing the pilots could have done to stop it. If it could have been stopped and it wasn't, then that is truly a shame.
When you look at the foresight that the ALPA founders displayed along with the risks that they took to further our industry you wonder what went wrong along the way. Perhaps we are victims of our own success. A widebody Capt in the 1980's or early 1990's lived a lot more comfortably and had a lot more to lose then the early ALPA pilots who were as much worried about getting killed as payrates. I think guys are finally beginning to realize that SCOPE affects all of us - and maybe now that management has possibly found a way to make SCOPE directly affect widebody international flying the pilot group will finally wake-up, unite, and take a very hard stand on this issue.
Maybe this will be managements Waterloo as far as SCOPE is concerned.

Scoop

DYNASTY HVY

And the slap's just keep coming !
The question is how much more of this type of action are you folk's at UAL willing to put up with ?
As far as the 90's are concerned in regard's to regional's , the carrier's went and did an end run around mainline.

contrail67

Here is the article for those interested.
Aer Lingus and United Airlines Announce Transatlantic Partnership: PRNewswire Business News: UAUA - MSN Money

eaglefly

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but it won't just be "you folks at UAL" that will be (and ARE) watching the disintigration of the once proud profession of "Airline Pilot". This is but another milemarker in what appears to be the inevitable reduction of this now "job" (once career) to simple aerial Greyhound work. This is the first move to outsource the once lucrative International flying to newly created operators with lower labor costs, yet still for the control and benefit of current big business interest. This is nothing more then history repeating itself from 1992, when the first RJ's were introduced to take over previously mainline domestic flying and just like before, they'll have plenty of pilots jumping at the chance to fly it as well.

Soon, the 70-100 seat RJ will make up the bulk of domestic ops by 2015 and it will be flown by regionals at regional compensation. Tragically ALPA didn't recognize the effect of this cancer when the symptoms first appeared with the CRJ at Comair back in the early 90's. The cancer has now matastisized to over 50% of domestic ops now and will now only grow with minimal impedence. You saw Midwest and UAL in most recent red flags and soon AA. The AA pilots will fight the good fight, but econiomics and the interests of big business will ultimately prevail to reduce the traditional mainline job to a small precentage of medium-range domestic ops, long-range domestic, transcon and International (well.......it looks like much of that is now under attack as well).

The rest belongs to the larger RJ's and they're already well entrenched at dozens of low-compensation (read higher profit) regionals. I had aspirations of AA once, but now if I did go one day, I'd never make Captain, my trips would (and already do according to many friends there) look like Eagle's, I can forget a pension and my pay (aside from the initial 65% cut and the 5 years it would take to make that up) wouldn't make that much of a difference (at least from senior Eagle, that is). I'm better off here........at least there MIGHT be better job security and I have health care (for now). Since this segement of the profession is here to stay (and will get larger), sadly it seems the large RJ is the best bet for long-term pay and health care. Soon, new International flying will be done regional style and this is the first move. I bring up the painful RJ issues, because this "first shot" by UAL is nothing more then a repeat of the "Regional carrier" on the International side. If I had any confidence in ALPA's leadership to stop (or cure) an already terminal disease, I'd be the first to stand, but I see too many others falling with no one watching their backs. It's almost "every man (or pilot group) for themselves now"..........pathetic.

It's FAR too late to stop the cancer now and the only thing ALPA can do is find new ways to generate more income (THEY are a business too, after all) for the nice salaries and expense accounts that have not taken a hit in the last 8 years while the majority of the hard working line pilots who make up this industry have gotten the shaft from every direction. I hate to say it (if you REALLY look hard, you CANNOT deny it), but this profession reminds me of a common grade school dilemma that some kids face. Kid "A" goes to school where a bully has chosen him for domination and control and threatens him if some (or all) of his lunch money is not relinquished (read management). Kid "B" (ALPA) comes along and promises to protect the first kid from the bully if he pays him less of his money...........that way he won't be hassled and will have most of his money. Sounds like a good deal.

Problem is kid "B" never seems to be around when you need him most ?

Look around folks..........in 10 years, these new International companies will be handling 50% of the current International flying. No one recognized the small tumor in 1992 for what it was and no one (except those conceiving it) will likely recognize this sister disease in its infancy either.

On another interesting note, a recent monthy payment check to ALPA was apparently damaged (and thus not cashed) I believe after it was in ALPA accountings hands, but I was not notified for 7 weeks. If I had, I could have corrected the problem. Instead, I recieved a threatening letter a couple of weeks before that I was in bad standing for faliure to pay and must pay ASAP or it may lead to termination of my employment (which I consider tyranny).

Problem corrected, but handled poorly by ALPA. It brought back memories of several years ago, when ALPA sent me a letter informing me that I had overpaid for several years and I was due a refund. Overpaid for 3 YEARS. I'm sure the extra interest earned by ALPA on that money (which I'll never see) helped the expense account kitty going nicely. ALPA blamed my company for their faliure to provide timely documentaion, but during this WHOPPING 3 YEAR period, ALPA apparently found no interest (or benefit) of notifying the affected pilots of an ongoing situation. One can only shake their head.

To the pilots of Midwest who are getting screwed, The pilots of UAL who will continue to get screwed and to the rest of us who will in the future (perhaps myself included), Kid "B" will continue to be convieniently absent until there's no more lunch money for them to skim.

In the mean time, fly safe out there kids and don't forget to watch it happen.

IFly17

The powers that be at the union are not the junior FO's. They are the very senior and wide body captains who are above the furloughs and seat displacements with furloughs. I always wonder if there is a large amount of "its not my problem" sentiment at the MEC and the national office for junior guys because they paid their dues as a junior guy and it's time to "get theirs." This new holding company now has a direct impact on those senior/wide body guys who were not concerned before.

That era has to come to an end because this impacts everyone. From me the lowly regional FO all the way up to the most senior 747 captain. You guys losing flying to this holding company will be one more nail in the coffin of my dream to fly for a major. Now the guys who have spent 20+ years getting to the left seat of the planes that are now under direct attack stand to lose it to this holding company. Less flying, less pilots, less hiring down the road. Everyone loses.

If the United guys lose this fight, then what is going to prevent AA/BA/IB from doing the same if this company is profitable. We need to pull together now. We have to stand together and help the United guys fight this.

ToiletDuck

If the UAL MEC, ALPA, and pilot group don't stop this then there's absolutely no reason for me to be pro union anymore since all they do is take your money and that's it.

IADBLRJ41

I have often thought that this business just needs to collaspe before it can ever be something worth staying in. God knows the pilots and other airline labor groups have taken it up the A#$.

There is no incentive to stay in this business. The above posts are spot on that this is starting at UAL and then it will be off and running to other airlines.