Potential Virgin America Credit Problem
03-25-2009, 04:22 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: Non flying, pays better than any front seat, home every night, not missing the crashpad/
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by seenitall
I'm new to this forum but not to commercial aviation, 20 years with AA after 7 years in F18's. From reading this blog I'm guessing most of you are in your twenties. Not one word about how working for these companies is and will destroy our profession. Yes, working for them is a paying flying job, but at what cost? If you plan to permanently fly for them, your lifetime earnings will be about half of that of that of the better legacies. Four million versus eight million for a thirty year career. If you plan on using them as a stepping stone, your action may destroy the very job you were aspiring to!
I was about to get hired two years ago and found out what the pay was, a little more than half of the industry standard. I told them to go "pack sand".
The profession is collapsing, stop jumping on top! They'll be nothing left
I was about to get hired two years ago and found out what the pay was, a little more than half of the industry standard. I told them to go "pack sand".
The profession is collapsing, stop jumping on top! They'll be nothing left
I "held the line" now looking for a job.
Until there is some defined path for a career and support it is what it is, ever man for himself.
You check what the upper level of management pulled down last year vs. the pilot group. Where is the problem? has the last few weeks not clarified this?
03-25-2009, 05:20 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,912
Where were you seenitall when the legacies rolled over and accepted lower pay, benefits, and termination of retirement benefits?
Make sure that O2 is on and 100%
Make sure that O2 is on and 100%
03-26-2009, 03:38 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 401
Originally Posted by seenitall
I'm new to this forum but not to commercial aviation, 20 years with AA after 7 years in F18's. From reading this blog I'm guessing most of you are in your twenties.
First, and I mean this sincerely, thanks for your service.
Second, if there were 30 years left on our careers, and if the pay, advancement and hiring were good at legacy carriers, we would be there. A lot has changed since you took indoc at AA.
While it is natural to look at the playing field from your own perspective, a few airline shutdowns and stagnant seniority lists will do wonders to broaden your perspective.
You should be glad you've got yours. Hope you never lose it.
Last edited by Fred Flintstone; 03-26-2009 at 03:41 AM. Reason: grammar
03-26-2009, 02:23 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: B777 Left
Posts: 736
Originally Posted by seenitall
I'm new to this forum but not to commercial aviation, 20 years with AA after 7 years in F18's. From reading this blog I'm guessing most of you are in your twenties. Not one word about how working for these companies is and will destroy our profession. Yes, working for them is a paying flying job, but at what cost? If you plan to permanently fly for them, your lifetime earnings will be about half of that of that of the better legacies. Four million versus eight million for a thirty year career. If you plan on using them as a stepping stone, your action may destroy the very job you were aspiring to!
I was about to get hired two years ago and found out what the pay was, a little more than half of the industry standard. I told them to go "pack sand".
The profession is collapsing, stop jumping on top! They'll be nothing left
I was about to get hired two years ago and found out what the pay was, a little more than half of the industry standard. I told them to go "pack sand".
The profession is collapsing, stop jumping on top! They'll be nothing left
Ask what the pay is at Delta and AA and UAL now compared with early 2005. A B767 captain at DAL makes now about $20 less an hour than his copilot made in 2005. And if you are comparing life's earnings at VA compared with someone on the street, hey that's a no brainer. I don't see a lot of complaining about pay at supplementals, charters, etc. They fly the same equipment as legacies, but where is the "outrage".
I have said it a hundred times on these forums, but who would have thought a little startup flying cargo in Falcon 20s would be where it is today. Or the guys that took a chance flying 737s for a small outfit out of LUV would ever amount to anything. And when Delta sold 8 of its old DC9s to ValuJet, who would of thought......
So what VA is paying doesn't look too bad in comparison to what "industry standard" is today. Seems to me that industry standard is more what VA is paying and not the three or four successful carriers are paying. Don't blame the startups, but blame the legacy mismanagement who love nothing better than to allow startups to get a foothold so their employees can be made to take paycuts. Blame legacy mismanagement (with union acquiescence) for allowing huge regional carrier agreements to take (or be given) most all short haul flying away from the carrier. I remember flying a 727 between ATL and AUG. That's being done with ATRs and RJs now.
Years ago (many many) I was on a National Alpa Committe looking into an industry contract. What was finally decided was that it would be a terrible idea in that if we said what the bottom pay would be for a, say a B727 captain, then that's what management would say that pay is all that it is worth. Can't win for losing.
These contracts will work there way up eventually when economies turn around, airlines make money and pilots will be fed up with substandard pay. And sure enough, another startup will come along to try and undercut them. So instead of telling them to "pound sand" and not be employed, perhaps working within the industry would be the way to go, if one truly wants this career.
After all that, I'm still curious about your career timeline.
04-01-2009, 07:17 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Posts: 203
Virtual Ownership
DOT Must Scrutinize Virgin America’s Citizenship
ALPA called on the U.S. Department of Transportation this week to hold a public inquiry if there has been a significant change in the ownership interests in Virgin America.
“Serious questions exist as to whether Virgin America is a citizen of the United States entitled to hold a certificate to provide air transportation,” said Capt. Paul Rice, ALPA’s first vice-president. “Given that significant changes appear to have occurred among the company’s investors, the American people deserve a public proceeding to determine whether Virgin America satisfies the law.”
On March 23, ALPA filed a response with the U.S. Department of Transportation in support of a petition by Alaska Airlines to institute a public inquiry into the citizenship and control of Virgin America, Inc.
ALPA’s response focuses on news media reports that two U.S. hedge funds have exercised their rights to sell their interests in Virgin America back to the British Virgin Group and that the airline has not found any U.S. investors to replace them. News media reports also indicate that, while the hedge funds no longer have any beneficial interest in Virgin America, they continue to “hold” 75 percent of Virgin America’s voting stock.
“The idea that a hedge fund counts for actual control of a company even if it holds no benefit or risk defies decades of public policy and current law that prohibits foreign control of U.S. airlines,” said Rice. “Virgin America would have us believe that any level of foreign investment in U.S. airlines is acceptable so long as U.S. citizens retain physical possession of the stock certificates and the right to vote 75 percent of an airline’s voting shares. We don’t agree.”
Labor leaders at both Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air, including the ALPA-represented pilots at Alaska Airlines, also have expressed their unqualified support for Alaska Airlines’ petition.
“The Alaska Air Group Labor Coalition, which represents more than 9,000 unionized employees at Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air, believes there is more than enough compelling evidence for a public review of Virgin America’s citizenship status,” said Capt. Sean Cassidy, vice chairman of ALPA’s Alaska Airlines Master Executive Council and a member of the Labor Coalition. “It is critical that the Department of Transportation ensure all domestic carriers fully and openly comply with U.S. law regarding foreign ownership and control. A failure to do so creates an uneven playing field that jeopardizes American jobs.”
A public inquiry on Virgin America’s citizenship status would also reflect the Obama administration’s commitment to transparency. U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder recently underscored this administration’s “fundamental commitment to open government” in a memorandum to all heads of executive departments and agencies.
“ALPA calls on the Department of Transportation to allow public scrutiny of Virgin America’s citizenship and separate fact from fiction when it comes to who is controlling the airline,” Rice concluded.
ALPA called on the U.S. Department of Transportation this week to hold a public inquiry if there has been a significant change in the ownership interests in Virgin America.
“Serious questions exist as to whether Virgin America is a citizen of the United States entitled to hold a certificate to provide air transportation,” said Capt. Paul Rice, ALPA’s first vice-president. “Given that significant changes appear to have occurred among the company’s investors, the American people deserve a public proceeding to determine whether Virgin America satisfies the law.”
On March 23, ALPA filed a response with the U.S. Department of Transportation in support of a petition by Alaska Airlines to institute a public inquiry into the citizenship and control of Virgin America, Inc.
ALPA’s response focuses on news media reports that two U.S. hedge funds have exercised their rights to sell their interests in Virgin America back to the British Virgin Group and that the airline has not found any U.S. investors to replace them. News media reports also indicate that, while the hedge funds no longer have any beneficial interest in Virgin America, they continue to “hold” 75 percent of Virgin America’s voting stock.
“The idea that a hedge fund counts for actual control of a company even if it holds no benefit or risk defies decades of public policy and current law that prohibits foreign control of U.S. airlines,” said Rice. “Virgin America would have us believe that any level of foreign investment in U.S. airlines is acceptable so long as U.S. citizens retain physical possession of the stock certificates and the right to vote 75 percent of an airline’s voting shares. We don’t agree.”
Labor leaders at both Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air, including the ALPA-represented pilots at Alaska Airlines, also have expressed their unqualified support for Alaska Airlines’ petition.
“The Alaska Air Group Labor Coalition, which represents more than 9,000 unionized employees at Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air, believes there is more than enough compelling evidence for a public review of Virgin America’s citizenship status,” said Capt. Sean Cassidy, vice chairman of ALPA’s Alaska Airlines Master Executive Council and a member of the Labor Coalition. “It is critical that the Department of Transportation ensure all domestic carriers fully and openly comply with U.S. law regarding foreign ownership and control. A failure to do so creates an uneven playing field that jeopardizes American jobs.”
A public inquiry on Virgin America’s citizenship status would also reflect the Obama administration’s commitment to transparency. U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder recently underscored this administration’s “fundamental commitment to open government” in a memorandum to all heads of executive departments and agencies.
“ALPA calls on the Department of Transportation to allow public scrutiny of Virgin America’s citizenship and separate fact from fiction when it comes to who is controlling the airline,” Rice concluded.
04-01-2009, 08:24 AM
#47
New Hire
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 9
Old news, Groundhog. Virgin America responded formally to that filing here:
http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...ontentType=pdf
http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...ontentType=pdf
04-01-2009, 09:43 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Posts: 203
Old news? OK, it was an ALPA press release from the 23rd. The filing was on the 24th.
In looking over the thread, I don't see where this has been posted before. The situation has been mostly painted as an Alaska vs. Virgin fight. This is the first time I've seen any mention of ALPA national wading in. At least not on this forum, and not in this thread.
I think it is a development worth mentioning. It may not be timely, but its certainly relevant.
Thanks for the link, by the way.
Hog
In looking over the thread, I don't see where this has been posted before. The situation has been mostly painted as an Alaska vs. Virgin fight. This is the first time I've seen any mention of ALPA national wading in. At least not on this forum, and not in this thread.
I think it is a development worth mentioning. It may not be timely, but its certainly relevant.
Thanks for the link, by the way.
Hog
Last edited by Groundhog; 04-01-2009 at 03:03 PM.
04-01-2009, 07:30 PM
#49
At your mom's house
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: cpt 737
Posts: 2,661
might be owned by a foriegn company, but mostly us citizens working there and it would certianley suck to have another airline go down. that would just mean more brothers and sisters on the street in an already saturated market. i would prefer not to see more people loosing thier jobs even if it mightbe bending the rules for the time being.
04-01-2009, 09:41 PM
#50
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 78
I know what you mean hoover but in this industry and when it comes to FAA and gov laws there is no bending the rules. There are bad consequenses for that. As you can see how the competitions is with Alaska making that motion someone else will bring it to light.
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