This is true but the pilots at the majors only have themselves to blame. They are the ones that loosened scope. Even after 911 united was furloughing and they still loosened scope. nwa had pilots on furlough and they created compass. talk about dumb.

Moderator Alert - please move this thread to LCC section. Thanks

You missed the point by as much as the distance there is from the US to Lagos, the jobs at VN belong to the Nigerians and my point has nothing to do with the migration of pilots but rather the market averages. I'm sure that you have convinced yourself that supply and demand is the reason why we are the lowest paid pilots of any of the industrialized nations but the supply and demand ratios during the 60's,70's, and 80's was even worst that it is now but the salaries saw some of the biggest gains, Why?

Agreed

Everyone who gets a job is initially happy. Small units tend to be more cohesive. Irrelevant to the discussion. I think most would rather be unhappy at a stable legacy than happy at VA.

Your comments regarding UAL and their effect are valid, however what initially contributed to the BK of a number of legacies? Without a doubt, the pressure exerted by new entrants with extremely low cost structures, delayed lease payments, and sub-standard wages/benefits allowed these carriers to exert severe downward pressure with basement ticket prices on the legacies that they were not structured to counter.

Insult to injury is it was part of the models of these LCC's to undercut the legacies to the point where they planned on several failing before their costs inevitably rose as more mature carriers, by which time they'd have the market share to be sustainable.

After the beating the legacies took, to now claim that we pay more than XYZ legacy is disingenuous at best.

That's not what I said, but it's true, if someone was hired directly into the left seat at VA today, they'd make more than someone in the right seat at UA. They'd also make more if they were hired into the right seat at VA since their first year pay is more than UA. Their opportunity for advancement, (upgrade), at VA is greater and therefore would be another reason their income would be greater. Assuming you could upgrade in the same aircraft at UA in 6 years, (not likely), your pay would only be $8 more per hour than VA at the same time of service and you'd have spent 3 or 4 years more in the right seat with worse schedules.

This is all completely moot since it's not possible to get hired at United right now.

You're brilliant... (yes, that's sarcasm). And why do you think they don't need to take 30% pay cuts?

The pilot groups that caught up are: Delta, United, American, NWA, SWA, etc... Yes, they were all start-up airlines at one time and paid their pilots terribly. But over time, new pay scales and work rules were negotiated. It only took them a few decades to get them but you expect VA or whoever to accomplish this instantly or they're considered beneath you.

If AT, JB, Frnt, AW are so subpar, why aren't there numerous threads bashing them? Why single out VA? VA hasn't even had a chance to make a go of it yet and you've already decided that they'll never negotiate a better pay scale. You seem to feel that you and you're airline are entitled to everything and no-one else can compete for the business. It's ok to not like competition but be an adult about it.

I don't know, when do you think an airline should pay industry leading pay... day one? You aren't a business major are you?

You apparently don't understand the seniority system.

Easy there turbo, its just a talking point thread.

I agree, I think VX is still an LCC, albeit a growing one.

The usual irrelevant response when your talking point has been shot down hum? I see why you want to avoid the talking point, and that is!

The Virgin brand opening a company in the US and paying their pilots the lowest salary of all their companies, Why do we accept this? I personally think that you gentlemen are amongst the best aviators in the world and should be paid accordantly

.

Talking point was not shot down. I gave you one explanation which you chose to ignore, that was your choice. If you would like go back and read it.

a "stable legacy" is an oxymoron in today's industry.

Sure, but an outdated business model and horrible mis-management had nothing to do with it. Of course.

Who is this "we" you refer to?

"but the supply and demand ratios during the 60's,70's, and 80's was even worst that it is now but the salaries saw some of the biggest gains, Why?"



That's because the airlines were regulated then, there was no real free market. The government decided routes and fares. When ALPA got a new contract the government approved higher fares to cover it. Carter signed the deregulation act in 1978, however, the effects weren't felt in force until the early and mid 80's. ie Continental, Eastern etc...

The only reason Virgin or any other airline can pay what they pay is there are pilots that will accept those wages. We live in a free country and hopefully still a free market, and even with the chaos that sometimes brings I would have it no other way.

Are YOU serious?

You know nothing of my friend except what I told you. He and I were elected ALPA reps together for 3 years. I saw him speaking up for the little guy and for unity. I saw him risking his job to fight for his fellow pilots.

You completely missed the point. You can't judge a man by the job he takes.

And I hate to break this to you all, but unions in this industry are becoming more and more irrelevant every day. We have transitioned to what almost every other industry has... employment at will and merit based promotion. Why do pilots think we're so special that we should have different rules apply to us? Why should we have guaranteed jobs and seniority based promotions? This is not the industry it was in 1977 anymore, and it's time we wake up and smell the coffee. Don't hate the pilots that realized that already, and now work at non-union carriers.

That is the worse thing that can happen to the airline industry. See reason below.

Because special and different rules already apply to us. How many other employees in other industries are required to be randomly drug tested. Have to repeatedly requalify to do their jobs. Are constantly recorded sitting at their desk and where anything they say can be used against them. While there are other jobs out there, if the vast majority of employees in this country were held to this standard, they would rebel.

For safety. If airlines were allowed to only promote pilots who "toed the company line," were willing to fly broken airplanes and in subpar weather, the safety record would be different. If you ever read "Flying the Line," you've either forgotten what the early days were like, or didn't really understand whay was going on.

When another airline buys you guys and staples you to the basement FO position you will see otherwise.

I don't disagree, but the point is that there isn't much we can do to stop it. Instead of burying their heads in the sand and wishing the 60s back, ALPA isn't doing much. They need to be adapting to the times.

Really?
How about truck drivers? Are they all union?
Bus drivers? Nope.
Airplane mechanics? Nope.
Delta's flight attendants? Nope.

Tell me again what makes pilots so special? And you accused ME of having a chip on my shoulder on another thread?

And how many non union airliners are falling out of the sky worldwide? YGBKM!

I have read both volumes of Flying the Line. This is not that era anymore! Put down the Kool Aid and realize that times have changed, and we need to adapt to the new reality, not continue to stand firm in the face of a tidal wave coming. Open skies changed EVERYTHING and Virgin America is the tip of the spear. If the US pilot groups don't change now and get together with management to fight it, we will be extinct in 20 years. The US airline industry will be like what the shipping industry is.

Sure, "stable" is relative nowadays, however I'll take CAL, NWA/DAL, UPS, FDX over VA, AT, JB any day. Of course the best airline to work for is the one that hires you - until the next better one does.

And my take is the LCC model is flawed as a long term going concern - it's in and out, big bucks for a few investors, and leave the industry a worst place in it's aftermath. The "I've got mine" vitriol should be saved for the charlatans who conceive these outfits - they are the only ones who remotely win. LCC's are the hedge funds of the airline biz.

As to the "we" I was referring to are the collective rationalization of pilots at these LCC's, whose willingness to work for lower than standard wages helped lower the bar, now crow "we pay just as much as UAL", etc.

Thank you for the unnecessary history lesson since I was working for the airlines back in those days, where you? at $100/h VA pilots are making less than what LAN Peru (a lesser paid subsidiary of LAN Chile) pay their a320 captains (if you count the fact that their company pay for their taxes) "free market" and "supply and demand" doesn't answer why we in the US are accepting salary rates lower than what an airline in a third world country is paying their pilots.

I haven't heard anyone at an LCC "crow" that they pay as much as UAL, have you?

I notice you didn't mention UAL.

Yeah, Southwest probably isn't here to stay.

define "standard wages".

Sadly, UAL may very well go out of business.

SWA is the one aberration to the LCC model. If it was so easy and that was all there was to it why aren't there a bunch of long term SWA clones out there? Other than SWA how many of the other LCC models since deregulation are still in business?

yep

None as successful as SWA, yet.

My whole point to this stupid discussion was that VA and it's employees shouldn't be treated poorly just because they present competition to your airline. You don't have to like it but in a free market society, you're going to face it from time to time. If your legacy carrier is so fantastic, then you shouldn't need to worry. But instead of acting like a child and pointing fingers/calling names, be an adult and let them run their business. If they fail, they fail. I agree, I don't think they'll survive in the long run but that's not, and never was, the point of this discussion.

You still haven't answered my question regarding who at the LCCs have claimed that they pay as much as UAL.

If you read my post a little more closely, you would see where I said there are other jobs out there which are held to the standard, but not many. But of these you listed, are truck drivers, bus drivers and FAs required to meet a medical standard every year? Are they video taped or voice recorded in the performance of their duties? Do the bus and truck drivers have to requalify their driving skills yearly?

This has nothing to do with an inflated ego. If the company and government want to treat me like a cubicle worker for pay and promotion, then I shouldn't be held to a higher employment standard than those same workers.

You seem to be more of the problem than the solution.

And you won't be. You'll be Ch7 like every other LCC since deregulation. I give VA less than 2 months after the financial data is released.

No one is treating VA employees poorly - you are even getting the JS to get to work so you can live somewhere you can afford, which you would be unable to do in SOCAL on the wages they pay. Other carriers are in effect subsidizing your substandard wages. Never seen a VA pilot kicked off the JS yet.

PWI

Cited for Posting While Intoxicated.

Go Steelers.

What do you mean by "you are even getting the JS?" Are we not all able to ride on the JS no matter who we work for? You make it sound like VA isn't worthy of a JS. I don't think you would appreciate that comment if you worked for VA.

Amen brother...

VA will turn out the lights soon, talked to a VA F/A that said the loads are a joke. C-ya Dick Branson and take your ***** pilots with you...

Who are you referring to? I don't work for VA, and never said I did. You need to get your $h1t straight before you make assumptions like that. It will make you appear more credible.

As far as the rest of it, I'm done arguing with you about this since it has become rediculous. You're entitled to your own opinion, even if you are wrong.

even if you don't like VA doesn't mean you need to come on here and hope for the demise of another airline or it's employees. I know a few guys over there and all they want is to work hard and provide for their families. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I think those were repo flights bro

Ouch! :eek:

I believe the lower bar was initially set by JetBlue, another LCC. Once their rates were set, management was able to use Bankruptcy to lower 320 rates at UA, NW, etc down to JB rates. VA came in and further lowered the bar by not improving rates. Guess it's the old "chicken before the egg" argument. :rolleyes:

I'd say because the pay is already low, and no one has more then 2-3 years of longevity. The cost structure has stayed low, but as people accrue longenvity it will go up. I'd also say that advancement opportunities at VA are probably as likely as advancement at UA. Airlines that are bleeding $$$ don't grow. Perhaps the more appropriate question is "Why don't you think they need to take 30% paycuts YET?"

Not true. Has to be approved by each MEC of each airline you have JS on. And no, I'm not a fan of giving the JS to carriers that are non-union and have contributed to the lowering of pay scales, however the counter argument is there may be former ALPA pilots working there.

I stand corrected. FWIW neither you, me, nor anyone else is "entitled" to an opinion.

In the USA you are definitely entitled to expressing your opinions. It's a First Amendment rule.

Read up on your bill of rights. It is not a "first amendment rule". The "RIGHT" that you have under the first amendment is only that congress will not abridge your "right". Private industry/people/etc. can forbid it all that they please. That's what moderators are for;)

Why would they repo a flight both ways? Seems an awful waste of fuel, time, and expense. I guess however they want to bleed money is OK with me......

VA is the only airline I know of ...that when you upgrade to capt. you are re-set to year 1 pay....this is lowering the bar, and hurts ALL professional aviators. for this alone VA shall cease to exist.

You are confusing freedom of speech. Introducing that we somehow have a "right" or "entitlement" to an opinion is a red herring that is irrelevant to solving the problem and adds nothing to the process. It's false logic. Having a "right" to an opinion does not make that opinion right - or wrong. Asserting the existence of the right is a failure to provide any justification for the opinion -it's a cheap way of forfeiting an argument without conceding defeat.