Handwriting on wall for Virgin America?
 

While technically not a "major", I think Virgin America qualifies as an "LCC". Interesting article about investors wanting out of Virgin America here:

http://industry.bnet.com/travel/1000...irgin-america/

Tough time to be a pilot, and that's a fact.

Tough time to be just about anyone right now.

Yep...exactly why VA is vigorously fighting the order to publicly report their financials. It is a common misconception that Black Canyon and Cyrus Cap. are the US investors, but that is only partially true. The real US money comes from Joe and Mary six pack (thousands of them). Black Can. and Cyrus merely manage the funds and take a nice fee...it is not their money invested! Most of the individuals who have been steered by their brokers into these VA funds do not have easy access to the financials. If VA actually had to put out their profits/losses to the general public, many of the current investors would be bailing (sounds like they are trying even without the hard numbers) and new investors would be extremely difficult to come by. Interesting to see how they navigate this.

Aren't they friends of Joe the Plumber?

That's ok - they can go to the UAL/Aer Lingus deal starting up in 2010 and claim that they are just feeding their family. :mad:

So true! In some ways we are our own worst enemies.

most of the time we are our own worst enemies...

Every time a crap airline goes out of business an angel gets its wings.

Aren't these hedge funds, not commonly available to Joe and Mary Six Pack, but more likely Billy Bigbucks

Haha that is fantastic!!

Well, I don't wish unemployment on any pilot (been there, done that, got the unemployment check).

That said, the saga continues. Looks like they're going to have to do the "full Monty", as it were. WSJ had this today:

Virgin America Must File Data - WSJ.com

• JANUARY 30, 2009

Virgin America Must File Data

Virgin America Inc. will have to disclose financial and traffic data beginning next week after losing a battle to keep it confidential.

The airline has sought to keep its data under wraps, claiming it would suffer "competitive harm" if forced to open its books.

Rivals have pressured regulators to make Virgin America disclose a range of performance and financial statistics.

The U.S. Department of Transportation denied its request in a letter dated Jan. 28, a copy of which was obtained by Dow Jones Newswires.

The airline will have to provide data going back to its launch, in 2007. Virgin America and its legal representative weren't immediately available for comment.

Good. They should have to do it like everybody else. My guess is they're hurting, and they don't want the investing public to know it.

Or their credit card processor. Several airlines have been forced into bankruptcy just because of holdbacks. I believe Frontier was the last.

Not cool at all.

Or perhaps the foreign investment tendrils are deeper than they want revealed? I have no problem if they want to withhold data - it's called being a privately held corporation. If you are public you play by the same rules as everyone else. Sure seems like they have something to hide.

neither is their contract.

Good friend of mine works for Virgin. She flew the SFO-LAX round trip last night......not a soul on board both ways.

I have a friend that went to VA. He was an ALPA rep at ASA. Good family man and hardcore trade unionist.

ASA pulled out of SLC and LAX, and having bought a pretty little house in SLC, he was faced with a hellaceous commute. He ended up going to JBlu hoping for an LA base. No dice. He left there after about a year and went to VA, short easy commute to SFO. Oh, BTW, he's a member of this forum. Maybe he'll chime in.

You should think twice before lumping everyone who works at a particular carrier as scum or scabs and also when wishing fellow pilots out of work. :(

There are good people at every carrier. That does not mean I want to see the industry continue to be eroded by carriers such as VA simply to provide a living for good people like your friend.

Sooner or later a far larger number of good people with similar stories are effected by the wages, work rules, etc of such companies on the rest of the industry.

Sorry, I just find that VERY hard to believe...

I have a bunch of friends that left U3K to go to Virgin, it seems like a great place to work. For those of you wondering, I give U3K about 2 years...

I should have gone to law school...

RK

Who is U3K?

I couldn't believe it either but she insisted.

Yet it's ok that the industry is eroded by carriers such as United? I don't see you bashing them. Their contract has degraded to near regional airline status in almost every way but that's ok?

I say lay off the VA guys, let them do their thing and just be happy that "you got yours", while thousands of your pilot brethren are struggling just to feed their families and keep their homes.

This selfish attitude is a huge part of the problem in this business. You don't give a rip about anyone but yourself.

Flame on children.

What contract ? Or is that the point? ;)

UAL has an entirely different set of issues, but they are not the cause of erosion in the industry. I cannot same the same for the LCC's (and SJS)

You fail to make the differentiation between the company and the people who are employed there. I''m not bashing the VA guys, I'm bashing VA, and will dance a jig on their corporate grave after ****ing on it. Ditto JBlu, AT and other LCC's. I do feel for the employees who go to work for such outfits, but I think most are pragmatic about the duration of such employment. By your rational, I should feel sympathy for those crossing picket lines, because they have families to feed and mortgages as well.

Speaking of giving a rip, I'm sure all those RJ and LCC pilots weren't feeling anything but joy as they were getting hired to fly the lift being given away by the legacies. Now the tide is starting to flow the other direction, and we are selfish and the cause of the industries ills?

Fraternity in this biz means stealing out of your brothers back pocket to feed yourself, and if he stops you, you yell "he's beating me up".

My best guess USA 3000

There are very good people working for VA, I know a three guys that work there and they are outstanding individuals, what bothers me is that an organization like Virgin will come to the US and start an airline with the lowest salary rates of all their companies (including Virgin Nigeria) and we flock by the thousands to take their offer, is as if we accept to be less of a professional than a pilot in Australia or Nigeria and although I think there are very good aviators all over the world, there are also very good aviators in the United States as well so I just don't understand why a brand as well experienced in hiring pilots all over the world feels that one of their pilots in Australia or Africa is worth $150/H and a pilot here in the US doing the same job and flying the same airplane is worth $100/H?

The short answer is that we have pilots here who will work for $100/hr.

And those issues at UAL affect the industry just as much if not more than any LCC ever did. Their contract degradation has lowered the bar that was once the top of the industry to less than those at some LCCs. QOL is worse at UAL than many of the start-ups. They're setting a precedent of allowing their once strong contract to be decimated, and that is sure to hinder future contract negotiations of all the airlines. So to say that they aren't part of the cause of the erosion of the industry is not a valid statement.

By your rationale, people who work for an LCC are akin to scabs. Crossing a picket line is a completely different issue. Are you on strike right now? No.

I'm not saying you should feel sympathy for anyone. I'm saying that the fact that someone chooses to fly for a company that doesn't have as high a pay scale as your company doesn't make them a bad person and they don't deserve to be berated either directly or indirectly.

What about SWA? They were/are an LCC. They most definitely began as an LCC. Look at them now. They're where "everyone" wants to go. They're at or near the top of the industry. Who's to say that VA doesn't turn out to be another SWA in 10-15 years? Unlikely maybe, but who are you to judge?

Instead of pointing a finger at companies that don't meet with your approval, maybe you should just sit quietly there in your 57 and just be happy that you've got yours.

I wish that were true.

It's because we have so many "good guys".

Its supply and demand. Do you really want to fly in Nigeria? If you did it would take a lot more than even 200 dollars an hour for me to go there. Sometimes money isn't enough and sometimes its not just about the money.

Are you serious?

If he went to jetblue and VA then he isn't that hardcore unless you consider hard core as paying dues...

That is just laughable!

After all of United's pay cut's, who's contract and pay is better? United or Virgin?

Do you really think that LCC's don't have an impact on the rest of the industry? If there product is so much better and they run a tighter ship than the legacies, why can't they pay their employee's the same? We all know that lower wages equal lower fares.

This is a rediculous hypothetical scenario but since you asked... If you were hired at United today or Virgin today, you would make more money at Virgin. Since Virgin doesn't have a contract per se, it would be tough to compare apples to apples. That being said, people who work for VA are happy, people who work for UAL are extremely unhappy. That speaks for itself.

I see your reading comprehension is pi$$ poor at best. I never said anywhere in my posts that LCCs don't have an impact. I merely stated that to think that UAL's degrading contract doesn't impact the industry just as much, if not more, is not valid.

If and when a new company starts to generate a profit and is stable, don't you think the labor groups will start asking for their share? Every US airline paid their pilots like crap initially and over time the pilot groups negotiated for their fair share.

You can't start at the top, it doesn't work that way.

Very true. I agree 100% with your analysis. Thousands were furloughed from Legacy carriers while Regionals built fleets of 200-250 CRJs and ERJs, replacing great jobs with great pay and benefits. Now, the shoe is on the other foot and regionals are downsizing.

Branson wants to turn pilots into hired help. Fu(k him and that airline. I have no sympathy.

You are right in many ways. I hate to see good people taken down by bad companies. With that said, I wont miss VA, it was a leech on our profession. It is up to us to protect what we do, no one else will.

Fly4Hire,

You make some valid points, but to say the UAL contract didn't have any impact on the industry is wrong.

The BK contract followed the same road as other contracts.....senior guys take care of themselves first and junior guys get to hope the get there some day.

In BK senior folks on the MEC had one goal, save the pension! However, tunnel vision prevented them from seeing the obvios fact that the pensions would be terminated before exit. The concessions made in round one were well beyond the "fair and equitable" requirements in the code. Pilots gave up almost 45% of all labor concessions in round one not counting the to be terminated pension! I voted no because I didn't want to take that hit to save the already dead pension.

Enter round 2, company conveniently ask for more concessions but this time the amounts from each labor group are in line with the % of cost each group contributes to total labor costs. I voted No again because I had " already gave at the office." The end result using UAL's numbers and not counting pensions netted the pilots a 38% share of labor concessions while only accounting for 24% of labor costs!!! You throw in the other QOL issues and the numbers go higher.

Bottom line, the " live to fight another day" and take care of the senior guys mentality, failed.

I was there for all of it and had enough. I'm on a voluntary furlough now and wasn't in the gun sight for furlough, FYI.

IMO, ALPA needs to have a paradigm shift both in how it looks at pay and how it interacts with the company.

Generally speaking, anyone hired by a major has "paid their dues" to get there. Therfore, to gain leverage you look at pay from a CAREER stand point rather than a "pay your dues and hang in there until you get to the left seat on a widebody" mentality. this ain't the 1960's!

Realizing there is only so much money to go around, you plus up 1st year pay and take a hit running up the chart. You however earn more during a career and have "portability" to be able to leave to another carrier with taking much less of a pay hit. Good luck selling that one I know.

Next, every issue cannot be something to burn the house down issue. Things have eroded so far at UAL that there is no functional relationship between ALPA and management. Death of the company is sure to follow if it goes on long enough!

Have fun.

Lee

really a guy hired at virgin who went immediately to the left seat making $95/hour would make more than a united hire making $30. You're fairly sharp to point that out. A gold star for you.

As for who's happy, it's not a shock to see people happy who start a new job. It usually works that way. Ask a new flight instructor, regional or LCC or major pilot. They are generally happy to have the new job. I bet though if Virgin pilots took a 30% pay cut they might not be as happy.

As for those airlines that start making a profit which pilot group ever caught up to get their fair share? Did airtran, jetblue, frontier, america west? Southwest never even caught up until 9-11 and that was by default. I hear they have a TA. Looking forward to seeing it.

How big would you say a start up can get before you think they should be caught up? If ever? When do you think they should get their fair share?

Your last sentence is my favorite. "You can't start at the top, it doesn't work that way." I guess you can try by going to virgin and becoming a captain right away.