Cathay Pacific one of the highest paid airlines re-sets your pay when you upgrade. I dont think its lowering the bar at all, it just depends on what 1st year pay is. Its a European things, thanks Sir Richard.

Upgrading Captains do not got back to first year pay. Longevity determines pay.

Not at Virgin America, unless it's changed since they started up.

What is MEC?

Start up companies are going to have non union workers, that is inevitable. At one point SWA was non union, so was DAL, NWA. So what do you suggest those pilots do while they are trying ot organize? Maybe you should try to spread the word instead of tainting it.

It has changed.

It is interesting that most of the diatribe that is posted as "fact", is generally b.s.... From the above issue to load factors, from finance to QOL issues. Most of the info is available through published interviews with their CEO over the past year... Although actually looking up facts would probably spoil the entertainment value that some seem to get, by hoping for the ill will of others.

Skipper

The JS that VA and any other non-union carrier enjoys are granted by the MEC (union Master Executive Council) of those carriers. I was responding to the charge that VA pilots are being treated poorly - they are not.

I do not see VA as a future SWA or anything else - the work rules and pay are another blight, hopefully eradicated, on our profession. Yet we still give you the JS, which is not a "right", but a privilege.

After editing my post I did some research. I did find that the Longevity now carries over to the left seat. The pay still needs massive improvement. I'll make more on my 2 yr pay then a 6 yr VA FO.

In regards to the load factors, I cannot comment because I don't know. I did see that VA is scheduled to take deliveries this year, but I don't know if the economic downturn will effect that. I suspect it will.

I don't wish ill-will on the VA employees, but I CANNOT support the horrible wages, nor a company which was created by RB. I'm sure he would LOVE to get his paws on the US market,(he basically has) and I will not support cabatoge.

Please note that I don't consider VA cabatoge. I just won't support an airline created by a foriegn owner who most likely will attempt to further expend his company in the USA.

Good grief I thought this was a pilot forum, not a law forum.

Just wanted to break the ice a little :)

But he is right.

Good point. Still, I have a right to my opinion and management has a right to terminate my employment or, since this forum is also part of a business, moderators have a right to toss me.

They aren't cabotage, but how long before foriegn ownership and cabotage rules change due to the economy and globalization?

Anyone here wear America's jeans, Levis? Anyone know how many Levis factories are left in the United States? As long as pilots keep fighting each other, our day will come too and it won't be pretty.

Bud Anyone?
 

Anybody have a Bud lately? Better check, it's owned by InBev out of Belgium. So only drink Sam Adams. How many here are driving cars other than GM, Ford or Chrysler? If you don't buy 100% American owned, than I believe we should be careful making the cabatoge arguement. Just don't drive to the cabatoge SOS picket line in a Honda.

I am no fan of cabatoge and think it would not be a good thing for this industry. Just look at your own lives and think what products you use that are not US owned.

The new USAF tanker may finally be an Airbus product. All I am saying is that the cabatoge argument is losing steam in this global economy. And the influx of loans from China keeping the US economy afloat?:(

What percentage of those cars were built in the USA and what percentage were built or assembled by Americans? Becareful about advocating GM, Ford or Chrysler as 100% American over a Toyota built in Huntsville, Alabama; Georgetown, Kentucky; Princeton, Indiana; San Antonio, Texas or Buffalo, West Virginia.

Cabotage is coming whether we like it or not. I don't like cabotage either but being in denial about it coming at us doesn't help us. The more we are divided as union pilots the faster it will get here.

Built and owned by American's is two different things entirely. You can buy a car from Honda that was made here, but that money still goes to a foreign owner.

First off if you have to write that it's sarcasm, it's not that good. Your asking why I don't think VA needs to take a 30% pay cut? If pay cuts are needed at that low of a rate then the company is already failing and those cuts won't save it.

I like how you are comparing VA to delta, nwa, united, american and southwest. I'll give you southwest but the others were start ups when there weren't any other airlines. They were the originals. It only took southwest 30 years to catch up and that is only because the others fell. They never caught up or really fought to catch up in the first 30 years. I'm waiting to see how they do on their TA.

Threads on other airlines have all been out there. Jetblue had a bunch on here.

You want to give Virgin pilots the benefit of the doubt that's fine. I'm just waiting to see a pilot group actually fight to catch up and do it. I've heard pilots say "don't pick on me, we've only been around for 30 years and it's only our second contract." My response is what have you been waiting for this whole time. An airtran pilot's comment once was "it's tough to get a pay raise now that the rest have fallen to just above us."

As for not liking competition, when did I ever say that. I would love competition. I love that frontier, jetblue, virgin and airtran have entertainment on their airplanes. It makes the others have to compete. If you are talking about competing against other pilot groups who are undercutting the rest of the industry pilots then I'm completely against that. Let management do the competing.

You are right I'm not a business major and if you are I hope you are asking for a refund. Yes I believe they could be paying industry standard from day one. If they are a startup then their pilots will be paid 1st, 2nd and 3rd year CA and FO rates vs. the higher year rates of established carriers. There's already an advantage built in.

I do like that you won't even give an opinion as to when a start up should pay industry standard. That's the same answer everyone gives.

Very true. You said he was a hardcore trade unionist and that he fought for the little guy. Then he went to 2 non union airlines that under paid it's pilots. That isn't very Hardcore. Unless hardcore to you means "only when it fits into my plans".

I hate to break it to you but your friend is part of the reason for the union becoming more irrelevant these day.

Hypothetical question. On your merit based promotions (upgrades or transitions to larger airplanes) how do you determine who gets the upgrade or the larger airplane?

I don't think the pilots at the majors appreciate the VA payscales either.

Those pilots should know the word by the time they are qualified to work at VA. I highly doubt that they don't know it unless they are military and even then I bet they would learn it rather quickly.

Hey I see a lot of United dudes flying on VA so it goes both ways. You do not see va as a future swa? What makes you qualified to make that assumption? Just wondering. The JS is not a tool to barter, we all use the JS on other carriers at some point. Don't make the "I am holier than thou" argument because if you needed a ride and VA was your last chance to get home, you would be asking for a ride wouldnt you? Disclaimer...I dont work for VA.

I for one don't like to see other pilots losing jobs, even if it is VA or whoever. If these guys and gals were out of work many of them would be screwed.

Spoken like a defender of American management.

Here's the difference between an American-owned company with outsourced workers and a Japanese-owned company building cars in America.

Profits of the outsourcing American-owned company go straight into a manager's pocket so he can invest in a bigger factory in Mexico and outsource jobs.

Income from jobs in America go into Joe the Plumber's pocket. Which is better?

The fact is, due to the globalization of the economy, it is very difficult to tell what is made where.

Each of these company is/ are global companies. My point lies in the fact that if you want to buy American, but from an American company. I have a GMC truck made in Arlington Texas, and a American made compact car. I choose to support two companies that have made America great.
I do not choose to buy a car made in the USA by American workers, but owned by a foreign company.(The profits go over seas not in to the pockets of ANY Americans) I bought two cars that have parts made all over the world but assembled in the USA. I finance with American banks, et al.

Globalization is the way that everything is going. I know it, and am not sticking my head in the sand, but WE has the American consumer have something to say about how and where our money is spent.

I will be the first one to tell you that too many executives have pillaged this country for all of it fruit. Our generation will have to repair what the "Greatest Generation" did to America. That fact is something I tell my executive level parents every day.

Herkdrvr,


Well my friend, I'll just give you a memorable quote from the great classic Hollywood Shuffle...


'Hoes gotta eat too'

I agree, which is why I WONT support VA. Branson is trying to put his product in every country. He will glady pay his employees crap to do it. NO to Foriegn Ownership and CABOTAGE!!!!!!

IT IS UN-AMERICAN to fly on virgin....they are a foreign airline using foreign equipment. there are too many job losses here in the USA...don't buy tickets on virgin america...that is money going into bransons pockets.

Milk just shot outta my nose...thanks for the morning laugh....wow.

UN-AMERICAN??? What the heck are you guys smoking?

Should somebody not fly JetBlue now? Lufthansa invested in them. UPS, FedEX, Delta/NWA, United, JetBlue, all the regionals... they all have airplanes made overseas. Oh wait, the 777 has some outsourcing on it, don't buy a ticket on that. Foreign accent on a pilot over the PA? Is he a citizen? No way should he/she have that job when there are Americans who want it. You guys are nuts.

Oh, by the way, better not go online, where do you think your computer is made? Uh oh...

Idiots.

Also :

Dont drink BUD

fell free to ADD to the LONG LIST

25 cents of every dollar spent on a virgin america tickets goes to richard branson...

. . . and Richard gets "Prima Nocte" with every new-hire American-born Virgin America flight attendant . . .


:rolleyes:

Niiiccceee.......................reference.

Where do you find this crap?