It's because we have so many "good guys".

 

Its supply and demand. Do you really want to fly in Nigeria? If you did it would take a lot more than even 200 dollars an hour for me to go there. Sometimes money isn't enough and sometimes its not just about the money.

 

Are you serious?

If he went to jetblue and VA then he isn't that hardcore unless you consider hard core as paying dues...

That is just laughable!

 

After all of United's pay cut's, who's contract and pay is better? United or Virgin?

Do you really think that LCC's don't have an impact on the rest of the industry? If there product is so much better and they run a tighter ship than the legacies, why can't they pay their employee's the same? We all know that lower wages equal lower fares.

 

This is a rediculous hypothetical scenario but since you asked... If you were hired at United today or Virgin today, you would make more money at Virgin. Since Virgin doesn't have a contract per se, it would be tough to compare apples to apples. That being said, people who work for VA are happy, people who work for UAL are extremely unhappy. That speaks for itself.

I see your reading comprehension is pi$$ poor at best. I never said anywhere in my posts that LCCs don't have an impact. I merely stated that to think that UAL's degrading contract doesn't impact the industry just as much, if not more, is not valid.

If and when a new company starts to generate a profit and is stable, don't you think the labor groups will start asking for their share? Every US airline paid their pilots like crap initially and over time the pilot groups negotiated for their fair share.

You can't start at the top, it doesn't work that way.

 

Very true. I agree 100% with your analysis. Thousands were furloughed from Legacy carriers while Regionals built fleets of 200-250 CRJs and ERJs, replacing great jobs with great pay and benefits. Now, the shoe is on the other foot and regionals are downsizing.

 

Branson wants to turn pilots into hired help. Fu(k him and that airline. I have no sympathy.

 

You are right in many ways. I hate to see good people taken down by bad companies. With that said, I wont miss VA, it was a leech on our profession. It is up to us to protect what we do, no one else will.

 

Fly4Hire,

You make some valid points, but to say the UAL contract didn't have any impact on the industry is wrong.

The BK contract followed the same road as other contracts.....senior guys take care of themselves first and junior guys get to hope the get there some day.

In BK senior folks on the MEC had one goal, save the pension! However, tunnel vision prevented them from seeing the obvios fact that the pensions would be terminated before exit. The concessions made in round one were well beyond the "fair and equitable" requirements in the code. Pilots gave up almost 45% of all labor concessions in round one not counting the to be terminated pension! I voted no because I didn't want to take that hit to save the already dead pension.

Enter round 2, company conveniently ask for more concessions but this time the amounts from each labor group are in line with the % of cost each group contributes to total labor costs. I voted No again because I had " already gave at the office." The end result using UAL's numbers and not counting pensions netted the pilots a 38% share of labor concessions while only accounting for 24% of labor costs!!! You throw in the other QOL issues and the numbers go higher.

Bottom line, the " live to fight another day" and take care of the senior guys mentality, failed.

I was there for all of it and had enough. I'm on a voluntary furlough now and wasn't in the gun sight for furlough, FYI.

IMO, ALPA needs to have a paradigm shift both in how it looks at pay and how it interacts with the company.

Generally speaking, anyone hired by a major has "paid their dues" to get there. Therfore, to gain leverage you look at pay from a CAREER stand point rather than a "pay your dues and hang in there until you get to the left seat on a widebody" mentality. this ain't the 1960's!

Realizing there is only so much money to go around, you plus up 1st year pay and take a hit running up the chart. You however earn more during a career and have "portability" to be able to leave to another carrier with taking much less of a pay hit. Good luck selling that one I know.

Next, every issue cannot be something to burn the house down issue. Things have eroded so far at UAL that there is no functional relationship between ALPA and management. Death of the company is sure to follow if it goes on long enough!

Have fun.

Lee

 

really a guy hired at virgin who went immediately to the left seat making $95/hour would make more than a united hire making $30. You're fairly sharp to point that out. A gold star for you.

As for who's happy, it's not a shock to see people happy who start a new job. It usually works that way. Ask a new flight instructor, regional or LCC or major pilot. They are generally happy to have the new job. I bet though if Virgin pilots took a 30% pay cut they might not be as happy.

As for those airlines that start making a profit which pilot group ever caught up to get their fair share? Did airtran, jetblue, frontier, america west? Southwest never even caught up until 9-11 and that was by default. I hear they have a TA. Looking forward to seeing it.

How big would you say a start up can get before you think they should be caught up? If ever? When do you think they should get their fair share?

Your last sentence is my favorite. "You can't start at the top, it doesn't work that way." I guess you can try by going to virgin and becoming a captain right away.