|
Everyone making posts about one contract for all pilots and combining negotiations for all pilots needs to read the Railway Labor Act. It was conceived and put into law to prevent exactly what the posters want. The first step before anything else can be accomplished needs to be a repeal of the RLA. Absent that all the rest is fantasy.
|
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
(Post 560730)
Sorry, I'm not a socialist!:D
|
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 560998)
You will be when Obama signs the Congressional Rescue Action Plan in Denver tomorrow... :mad:
|
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
(Post 561060)
That's funny, but this massive spending bill was just signed into law. :mad:
Carl |
Originally Posted by TheDashRocks
(Post 560849)
Your posts have gotten under my skin and I am partly giving in to the urge to lash out. Self control is a good thing. Don't take it so personally.
I am also guessing that you never worked at a regional and probably came out of the military straight to DAL. You probably also fly in the reserve during your generous mainline time off. What's your point? I use my time off to do other things to maintain a certain quality of life. I've spent years away from my family and friends while on active duty in the military, and I did go straight from the military to a major. What's your point? You think I should've started at a regional? And I did work at a regional. I worked the ramp while paying my way through college. Perhaps we should have a separate union for Captains and First Officers. Why should I pay dues to a union that does not completely focus on my situation dealing with the weighty burdens of command? This is part of what I was saying. We both pay dues to the same organization and they don't focus solely on either one of our situations. Our MECs are supposed to do that, but our situations are quite different. It doesn't make sense for the two of us to belong to the same union. ALPA national does much good in the political and safety side of the house, but they can't support both of us on the line type of issues at the same time. I don't want a union that isn't solely looking after the interest of my workforce. So you are not a socialist? Neither am I, and I do not believe that I have even met one. Try to expand your thinking beyond sound bites that can fit on a bumper sticker. Our country is in economic crisis mainly due to the evisceration of regulatory oversight of our financial system. Solutions are discussed and hammered out, and all the far right can do is cry "socialism". No new ideas, just the tired old ones that got us here. Rhino Driver, you are probably going to be totally urinary when national health care is created. Go to Europe, even Canada and take a look at "how good" national health care really is. It's miserable. It's a beauracratic nightmare. We have the greatest healthcare system in the world. I'm not saying it's perfect, because it isn't and there is definitely room for improvement. Maybe our system wouldn't be so messed up if we didn't fund the entire immigrant population or the masses that flee their own country's "National Heathcare System" for care in the US. My better half works in the healthcare industry. We treat anyone and everyone. No person in need is ever turned away from the ER and there TONS of free clinics that our system already funds and has funded forever. She just recently was involved in a case where a woman from Nigeria, Nigerian citizen, doesn't even live or work in the US, and your tax dollars just paid to support the final 3 months of her pregnancy and her delivery. Oh, by the way, that kid is now a US citizen. If that isn't incredibly stupid and unbelievable, I don't know what is. And Obama just signed into law the biggest spending bill ever. Oh well, everyone deserves this. Tax payer or not, I'm entitled. Insanity! It all comes down to two basic attitudes. Preserve my immediate situation and screw the new hires, the regional pilots, and anyone else. Or else work to raise the floor of our profession while improving the pay and work rules at the top tier. These goals are not mutually exclusive. The most effective strategy for long term gains for everyone and the health of our profession is closer links between pilot groups and contracts covering more than one company. I'm really not for "screwing" anyone else in this industry. I've said it before that I would do anything I could to help out another pilot in need or help someone achieve their career objectives. I just think the Regionals have gotten too large and are now flying routes and aircraft that belong to mainline carriers. The regionals are a necessity and they fill a need to both the company and to pilots trying to climb their way up the ladder. I do not support stapling, same unions, pay parity, or anything else that brings the regional level up to that of mainline. In my opinion, a regional shouldn't be a career. It's a stepping stone and if you decide to stay there, that's your business. I don't really care. But don't expect help from me when it comes to increasing YOUR QOL. We have our own issues and are trying to make life better for us and YOU down the road. Get the regionals together and get pay parity, QOL, etc. as a group amoungst yourselves. There's a fight brewing within this industy, and we're coming to get our jobs, aircraft, and routes back that belong at mainline. It's nothing against you, and it's nothing personal, but enough is enough. This will make this profession, as a whole, better. To increase the quality of life, pay, work rules, job security, everything better in the long run. Better for everyone because most of those at the regionals are trying to get here and in the end, it will be better for all of us. |
Rhinodriver said:
I've spent years away from my family and friends while on active duty in the military, and I did go straight from the military to a major. What's your point? You think I should've started at a regional? Maybe. I do not think that all military flying has a direct relationship to airline flying. I do not think that all military pilots are better prepared than I to work at a major airline. Flying a single seat fighter or attack aircraft relates to airline flying about the same as piloting an LCAC. I was in the military. I too spent time away from friends and family. My service was in the enlisted ranks and therefore is of little use in getting hired by a major airline. If the majors want to give preference to veterans, then make it apply to all veterans. ALPA national does much good in the political and safety side of the house, but they can't support both of us on the line type of issues at the same time. I don't want a union that isn't solely looking after the interest of my workforce. I got it. You are putting the “I” back in union. I think you make too much of the “differences” between mainline and regional flying. Both involve complex aircraft under Part 121 rules. The only differences are aircraft size (and that is narrowing by the day), pay, and work rules. Go to Europe, even Canada and take a look at "how good" national health care really is. It's miserable. It's a beauracratic nightmare. We have the greatest healthcare system in the world. Right. Rush and Hannity say this all the time and it is nonsense. In Canada they spend a much lower percentage of their GDP on health care and their life expectancy is higher. Maybe our system wouldn't be so messed up if we didn't fund the entire immigrant population or the masses that flee their own country's "National Heathcare System" for care in the US....We treat anyone and everyone. No person in need is ever turned away from the ER and there TONS of free clinics that our system already funds and has funded forever....a woman from Nigeria, Nigerian citizen, doesn't even live or work in the US, and your tax dollars just paid to support the final 3 months of her pregnancy and her delivery. Oh, by the way, that kid is now a US citizen. If that isn't incredibly stupid and unbelievable, I don't know what is. You sure have a lot of gripes about the “best health care system in the world”. I'm really not for "screwing" anyone else in this industry. I've said it before that I would do anything I could to help out another pilot in need or help someone achieve their career objectives. I do not know what else to call it when you want to divide our union into smaller unions and create what you think will be an organization that will focus only on your immediate needs. You would do anything to help another pilot except belong to a union large enough to represent both of you. There's a fight brewing within this industy, and we're coming to get our jobs, aircraft, and routes back that belong at mainline. It's nothing against you, and it's nothing personal, but enough is enough. This will make this profession, as a whole, better. You will never be able get a major airline to agree to pay pilots $200 hour to fly 100-seaters. Not in this economy. You are right; regionals are flying aircraft the majors should be flying. That horse has already left the barn. You will not be able to rewrite history. From a union stand point, the best way to improve the situation is to have contracts that apply to regional and major airlines, and preferably a national contract that covers all airline employers. Negotiate true “flow-up/flow-back language that provides furlough protection to major pilots and career progression to regional pilots. Establish rigid scope clauses at the 70 seat mark. Negotiate reasonable, increased rates of pay for the larger regional aircraft and have them flown by the major carriers. Because I am unclear where I would fit into the aftermath of your “coming to get our jobs, aircraft, and routes back”, and uncertain what help I could expect from your seperate union for the members of my seperate union, I will definitely take it personally. |
Originally Posted by TheDashRocks
(Post 561530)
You will never be able get a major airline to agree to pay pilots $200 hour to fly 100-seaters. Not in this economy. You are right; regionals are flying aircraft the majors should be flying. That horse has already left the barn. You will not be able to rewrite history. |
Jolly, answer me this. What is painted on the side of your airplane? What does the ticket say? How many gates does your company own? How about a marketing and strategic planning division? Does your company have route authority anywhere?
Face it, the regionals today are subcontractors. The routes they fly are owned by mainlines and subcontracted out. They fly them at the sole discretion of the mainline corporation. It wasn't always that way. There were many independent regional airlines but they have either been absorbed, failed, or codeshared into subcontractordom. (OK, I made that word up). So when Rhino says we are coming to get our jobs back, he is exactly right. The routes and seats belong to the mainline. It's time we brought them back. If you want to fly Delta Passengers in Delta airplanes, here is where you apply. Airline Applications |
Originally Posted by satchip
(Post 561576)
If you want to fly Delta Passengers in Delta airplanes, here is where you apply. Airline Applications
:) |
Originally Posted by FlyingViking
(Post 561547)
Give in, give in, give in. Stand up mister, and fight for your rights. This thread is about getting all crewmembers flying one color, under one union, not a crababy letout for people who just give up. Be optimistic and start thinking outside the box instead of just give, give, give, and then cry about it.
Originally Posted by satchip
(Post 561576)
Face it, the regionals today are subcontractors. The routes they fly are owned by mainlines and subcontracted out. They fly them at the sole discretion of the mainline corporation.
So when Rhino says we are coming to get our jobs back, he is exactly right. The routes and seats belong to the mainline. It's time we brought them back. If you want to fly Delta Passengers in Delta airplanes, here is where you apply. Airline Applications I have said several times that some current regional flying should be done at the majors. I think the best way to make this happen is to have the airline pilot's union negotiate contracts that cover major and regional airlines. With the limits that the RLA places on striking and the economic condition of the most major airlines, moving larger regional aircraft to the majors at pay rates matching those of the B737/A320/MD80 will not happen. The best case scenario is that these aircraft would be flown at pay rates that lie between current regional CRJ7/9 and major narrow body pay. |
Originally Posted by TheDashRocks
(Post 561530)
Because I am unclear where I would fit into the aftermath of your “coming to get our jobs, aircraft, and routes back”, and uncertain what help I could expect from your seperate union for the members of my seperate union, I will definitely take it personally.
Flying fighters in the Navy has most definitely made me a better airline pilot. Fighters are much more complex pieces of machinery. They fly twice as fast, just as high, and often 100FT off the deck at 600KTS. We fly complex missions requiring countless hours and experience to plan and execute. We takeoff, fly from point A to B (or A), come back and land, and then go home to our family (if we're lucky enough). Hmm, sound familiar? The difference is what we do after takeoff and before we land. We continually train in the most demanding environment in aviation...PERIOD! You're never just a "squadron pilot." You've never finally "made it" where you can sit back and coast on easy street. You're CONTINUOUSLY training or teaching throughout your entire career. We do fly from A to B. When I'm coming into the overhead at 400KTS, I'm still taking notes about the BFM mission I just executed, so I can give the young aviator the best instruction and debrief that I can give. I roll out on final at 400FT and 3/4 of a mile, put my notes away, call the ball, and land the jet (on a ship with *******y winds and a landing strip 400x60). Again, this isn't a mil v civ bebate. I really get p***ed though when some idiot tries to question how flying in the military (fighters in this case) can tranlate into flying in the airline world. It's all about experiences, confidence, ability, airmanship and SA (situational awareness). I will put any of my experiences and all of my training up against yours anytime, anyplace, and anywhere. Flying fighters has most definitely made me a better aviator. But I'm still not going to say I'm better than you and all the regional airline training you have received flying A to B, 90% of which was on autopilot. You may very well be the best pilot in aviation, but don't you dare question my abilities or my experiences as they relate to the airline world. I assure you, they're quite relevant. Ask the hiring department. |
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
(Post 561726)
I don't feel like taking up another page to debate this issue again, but I will respond to one of your remarks.
Flying fighters in the Navy has most definitely made me a better airline pilot. Fighters are much more complex pieces of machinery. They fly twice as fast, just as high, and often 100FT off the deck at 600KTS. We fly complex missions requiring countless hours and experience to plan and execute. We takeoff, fly from point A to B (or A), come back and land, and then go home to our family (if we're lucky enough). Hmm, sound familiar? The difference is what we do after takeoff and before we land. We continually train in the most demanding environment in aviation...PERIOD! You're never just a "squadron pilot." You've never finally "made it" where you can sit back and coast on easy street. You're CONTINUOUSLY training or teaching throughout your entire career. We do fly from A to B. When I'm coming into the overhead at 400KTS, I'm still taking notes about the BFM mission I just executed, so I can give the young aviator the best instruction and debrief that I can give. I roll out on final at 400FT and 3/4 of a mile, put my notes away, call the ball, and land the jet (on a ship with *******y winds and a landing strip 400x60). Again, this isn't a mil v civ bebate. I really get p***ed though when some idiot tries to question how flying in the military (fighters in this case) can tranlate into flying in the airline world. It's all about experiences, confidence, ability, airmanship and SA (situational awareness). I will put any of my experiences and all of my training up against yours anytime, anyplace, and anywhere. Flying fighters has most definitely made me a better aviator. But I'm still not going to say I'm better than you and all the regional airline training you have received flying A to B, 90% of which was on autopilot. You may very well be the best pilot in aviation, but don't you dare question my abilities or my experiences as they relate to the airline world. I assure you, they're quite relevant. Ask the hiring department. I am glad for my time in the service and I am glad you did yours, but let's not let that cloud our perspective. Get off the high horse. Both are all well trained pilots and BOTH routes bring different skills and types of experience to the table that are beneficial to safety. |
Originally Posted by TheDashRocks
(Post 561530)
Because I am unclear where I would fit into the aftermath of your “coming to get our jobs, aircraft, and routes back”, and uncertain what help I could expect from your seperate union for the members of my seperate union, I will definitely take it personally.
I have a suggestion for every regional pilot out there and I want every major airline pilot to get out there and help them out. Let's talk upcoming negotiations. We're going to do this together. I have to make a few assumptions though, and this is definitely open for debate. First, I'm assuming that the majority (not all) of regional pilots hope to one day get hired by a major airline. You're looking for a better QOL, better work rules, duty rigs, and our course, better pay. We're (major airline pilots) looking for the same things. Make them better at the major carriers, and one day you will reap the rewards. Secondly, I'm assuming that you're looking for help from the major airline pilots (ALPA ones that is) because we're all in the same union and should be fighting for each other. True brotherhood! Ok. This is the DAL In-House Union thread and there have been many good post about getting involved. Numerous suggestions have been made on here and I'm hoping everyone is contacting their Reps and letting them know how they feel. We (major airline pilots) want to take our flying back. We want our routes back. We want our pay back. The regional guys claim to want this as well because it will someday increase their QOL, etc. Starting now, we're working on 2012 negotiations. I have posted that I think we should be striving to get anything over 50 seats and greater than 300NM back to mainline. Mainline guys will work on this, and this is just a starting point. Give or take a few miles, maybe even start with over 70 seats. That's why we're debating it here. Regional guys, we need your help! We need you to REFUSE to fly anything over 300NM and anything larger than 50 seats. Contact your Reps and let them know how you feel. Let them know how tired you are of the mainline guys giving up on scope and how you want all that flying that has come to the regionals the last 10 years to go back to mainline. This is your duty. We really need your help. This will ultimately be a benefit to all of us. Also, negotiate a common pay scale amoungst all the regional carriers. This will help curb the whipsawing and cutthroat fighting among you. This will benefit the guys coming to the regionals in the future and will help promote job security. We can work together to make it better for all of us in the future. The ball is on the court and it's time to sink the 3 pointer. Stop the infighting. Work together. Let's show true brotherhood and help this industy and profession get back on it's feet. |
Originally Posted by shiznit
(Post 561745)
Awesome....Is that why more guys in my class and the one before mine had MIL guys require extra sessions and none of the CIV ones needed extra help?
I am glad for my time in the service and I am glad you did yours, but let's not let that cloud our perspective. Get off the high horse. Both are all well trained pilots and BOTH routes bring different skills and types of experience to the table that are beneficial to safety. Extra training sessions can happen to anyone, even the most senior aviators. And I wasn't on a high horse, I was simply commenting on a stupid remark made by Dash. |
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
(Post 561726)
I don't feel like taking up another page to debate this issue again, but I will respond to one of your remarks.
Flying fighters in the Navy has most definitely made me a better airline pilot. Fighters are much more complex pieces of machinery. They fly twice as fast, just as high, and often 100FT off the deck at 600KTS. We fly complex missions requiring countless hours and experience to plan and execute. We takeoff, fly from point A to B (or A), come back and land, and then go home to our family (if we're lucky enough). Hmm, sound familiar? The difference is what we do after takeoff and before we land. We continually train in the most demanding environment in aviation...PERIOD! You're never just a "squadron pilot." You've never finally "made it" where you can sit back and coast on easy street. You're CONTINUOUSLY training or teaching throughout your entire career. We do fly from A to B. When I'm coming into the overhead at 400KTS, I'm still taking notes about the BFM mission I just executed, so I can give the young aviator the best instruction and debrief that I can give. I roll out on final at 400FT and 3/4 of a mile, put my notes away, call the ball, and land the jet (on a ship with *******y winds and a landing strip 400x60). Again, this isn't a mil v civ bebate. I really get p***ed though when some idiot tries to question how flying in the military (fighters in this case) can tranlate into flying in the airline world. It's all about experiences, confidence, ability, airmanship and SA (situational awareness). I will put any of my experiences and all of my training up against yours anytime, anyplace, and anywhere. Flying fighters has most definitely made me a better aviator. But I'm still not going to say I'm better than you and all the regional airline training you have received flying A to B, 90% of which was on autopilot. You may very well be the best pilot in aviation, but don't you dare question my abilities or my experiences as they relate to the airline world. I assure you, they're quite relevant. Ask the hiring department. |
Heyas,
Like the others have said...the lawn boy has skinned the grass one too many times and broke the garden gnome, so we're going to start doing the lawn ourselves. The lawn boy was a cute kid, and it sucks to let him go, but times are tough all over. The good news is that there are urine samples to be flown, so it's not a total loss. Nu |
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
(Post 561768)
Take it however you want. You want to work together as a union, ok. I'm game. Why don't you stop complaining about scope and do something about it. You accuse the major pilots of giving it all away. It's all our fault. Fine.
I have a suggestion for every regional pilot out there and I want every major airline pilot to get out there and help them out. Let's talk upcoming negotiations. We're going to do this together. I have to make a few assumptions though, and this is definitely open for debate. First, I'm assuming that the majority (not all) of regional pilots hope to one day get hired by a major airline. You're looking for a better QOL, better work rules, duty rigs, and our course, better pay. We're (major airline pilots) looking for the same things. Make them better at the major carriers, and one day you will reap the rewards. Secondly, I'm assuming that you're looking for help from the major airline pilots (ALPA ones that is) because we're all in the same union and should be fighting for each other. True brotherhood! Ok. This is the DAL In-House Union thread and there have been many good post about getting involved. Numerous suggestions have been made on here and I'm hoping everyone is contacting their Reps and letting them know how they feel. We (major airline pilots) want to take our flying back. We want our routes back. We want our pay back. The regional guys claim to want this as well because it will someday increase their QOL, etc. Starting now, we're working on 2012 negotiations. I have posted that I think we should be striving to get anything over 50 seats and greater than 300NM back to mainline. Mainline guys will work on this, and this is just a starting point. Give or take a few miles, maybe even start with over 70 seats. That's why we're debating it here. Regional guys, we need your help! We need you to REFUSE to fly anything over 300NM and anything larger than 50 seats. Contact your Reps and let them know how you feel. Let them know how tired you are of the mainline guys giving up on scope and how you want all that flying that has come to the regionals the last 10 years to go back to mainline. This is your duty. We really need your help. This will ultimately be a benefit to all of us. Also, negotiate a common pay scale amoungst all the regional carriers. This will help curb the whipsawing and cutthroat fighting among you. This will benefit the guys coming to the regionals in the future and will help promote job security. We can work together to make it better for all of us in the future. The ball is on the court and it's time to sink the 3 pointer. Stop the infighting. Work together. Let's show true brotherhood and help this industy and profession get back on it's feet. My internet experience has come full circle today. It started with this video and now Rhino's comment. I'm loving it. MYWARVIDEO.COM Lazy Iraqi Police get motivational speech -Fatty |
That video is awesome!
Regional guys, you are the Iraqi Police. Quit your freaking whining and get out there and do something about it. Are you fighting for your profession (macro) or are you hiding in the corners waiting for someone else to do it for you. Enough of this *******! TAKE IT BACK! We're here to help on our end, now reference the above post and go do your duty to help this profession get back on its feet. Everything CAN NOT come from the top. |
We need to send that guy to Capitol Hill and give that speech to Congress!
|
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
(Post 561726)
...this isn't a mil v civ bebate. I really get p***ed though when some idiot tries to question how flying in the military (fighters in this case) can tranlate into flying in the airline world. It's all about experiences, confidence, ability, airmanship and SA (situational awareness). I will put any of my experiences and all of my training up against yours anytime, anyplace, and anywhere. I will absolutely answer that challenge. I can sex up a discription of what I have done just as you have stressed the drama and excitement of flying a fighter. Flying night circling approaches into mountain airports in a large turboprop part 121 airliner is at least as good a preparation for major airline flying as dropping bombs and the other things that you have done in a tactical aircraft. ...I'm still not going to say I'm better than you and all the regional airline training you have received flying A to B, 90% of which was on autopilot. You won't say you are better but you will still be snide. ...don't you dare question my abilities or my experiences as they relate to the airline world. I assure you, they're quite relevant. Ask the hiring department. |
Originally Posted by TheDashRocks
(Post 561967)
Should I ask the former military pilots in the hiring department. I think I know what they will say.
If you want to help, reference my post above and get involved with your REPs. If you really want things to change for this profession, we all have to do our part. |
Originally Posted by TheDashRocks
(Post 561967)
Should I ask the former military pilots in the hiring department. I think I know what they will say.
Read the title of this thread and judge for yourself how relevant your comment is. Start your own thread if you want to continue this senseless discussion that all involved should know have no end, and never will. |
:D
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
(Post 561798)
Awesome posts there Rhino Driver. Amen!!!
My internet experience has come full circle today. It started with this video and now Rhino's comment. I'm loving it. MYWARVIDEO.COM Lazy Iraqi Police get motivational speech -Fatty "...The line must be drawn HERE. This far, no further! I'm not saying it's going to be easy. You're going to work harder than you ever worked before. But that's fine, we'll just get tougher with it! If a person grits his teeth and shows real determination, failure is not an option. That's how winning is done! Believe me when I say we can break this army here, and win just one for the Gipper...." :D:p |
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
(Post 561988)
Good luck Dash. Thanks for serving. I'm assuming you're a former VF-103 guy. Sorry if some dude p***ed you off while working the flight deck one day back when.
|
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
(Post 557403)
So what happens when the senior pilot leadership of the new in-house union (which very well may be similar to the current leadership) decides to sell scope again? You gonna decertify the newly certified union?
|
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
(Post 561768)
Why don't you stop complaining about scope and do something about it. You accuse the major pilots of giving it all away.
I am not exactly complaining, I just think that we, as a profession, wound up here because we did not clearly see this coming and some unfortunate decisions were made by pilot groups in years past. I'm assuming that the majority (not all) of regional pilots hope to one day get hired by a major airline. You're looking for a better QOL, better work rules, duty rigs, and our course, better pay. We're (major airline pilots) looking for the same things. Make them better at the major carriers, and one day you will reap the rewards. Secondly, I'm assuming that you're looking for help from the major airline pilots (ALPA ones that is) because we're all in the same union and should be fighting for each other. True brotherhood! We (major airline pilots) want to take our flying back. We want our routes back. We want our pay back. The regional guys claim to want this as well because it will someday increase their QOL, etc. Regional guys, we need your help! We need you to REFUSE to fly anything over 300NM and anything larger than 50 seats. Contact your Reps and let them know how you feel. Let them know how tired you are of the mainline guys giving up on scope and how you want all that flying that has come to the regionals the last 10 years to go back to mainline. This is your duty. We really need your help. This will ultimately be a benefit to all of us. I have some trouble following you. You have spoken of seperate major and regional unions and you also speak of us all working together. I favor converting 70+ seaters to the majors. But I also think that regional pilots that have paid union dues for years should be given a structure and path into the majors flying those aircraft. If you are sticking to your idea that seperate unions are a good idea, what incentive is there for regional pilots to give away their moderate paying jobs in this economy? Should they be satisfied with a glimmer of hope at a major job someday? Also, negotiate a common pay scale amoungst all the regional carriers. This will help curb the whipsawing and cutthroat fighting among you. Great idea for major carriers, too. ...Stop the infighting. Work together. Let's show true brotherhood and help this industy and profession get back on it's feet. |
DAL CEO Meets with Pilots
|
I wonder what the feeling about staying with ALPA will be when Prater signs up AirTran and uses Delta dues money to prop them up?
Some interesting commentary here. "Our routes" ...wake up...you don't "own" any routes. That went away with Deregulation in '78. So did your "right" to them. "Your Jobs" A lot of "your jobs" wouldn't be there if majors hadn't signed deals with regionals to FEED "your" planes. Unless you plan of driving that 76ER into Huntsville or Boise to pick up 15 or 20 folks. Wake up and understand that airline pilots are nothing more than blue collar numbers to management. We just wear white shirts to work and somehow think we are better than the guy who dispatches us, the guy who loads us or the FA who puts up with the *******s in the back. The problem today is too many of us have forgotten history and believe we are special. Your "I got mine, you regional guys get your own" churns my gut. When you go on strike, they're the first ones you want to support you, not fly and pay strike benefits. And you crap on them? Smooth move. As to civilian versus military? Some good some bad on both sides. I've flown with both in my right seat. Personally, I'll take a guy who paid his own way, flew crap planes in a low altitude NE corridor IFR winter slogging it out with multiple legs a day in soaking wet shoes. Not only does he have a much better grip on reality when the magic goes "poof," he understands what it means to come up the hard way. He doesn't have a military pension, Guard or Reserve slot to fall back on when the crap hits the fan, and is much more appreciative of those around him who don't fly the plane, but make it possible for him to. |
Originally Posted by 1515greenlight
(Post 562780)
As to civilian versus military? Some good some bad on both sides. I've flown with both in my right seat. Personally, I'll take a guy who paid his own way, flew crap planes in a low altitude NE corridor IFR winter slogging it out with multiple legs a day in soaking wet shoes. Not only does he have a much better grip on reality when the magic goes "poof," he understands what it means to come up the hard way. He doesn't have a military pension, Guard or Reserve slot to fall back on when the crap hits the fan, and is much more appreciative of those around him who don't fly the plane, but make it possible for him to.
You miss something too. I'm sure the guys who do have something on the side, ie Guard, Reserves, their own business, whatever, are much less likely to take crap when it starts coming their way. You'd probably be one of the first to scream bloody strike, and take off running to the cockpit to fly for the company when it actually transpired! When the magic goes "poof?" Are you referring to some type of emergency situation? I assure you, the military guys deal with that ******* much more than you can imagine. I've flown more single engine, degraded approaches than I care to remember. But I do agree, some good, some bad on both sides. :D |
Pistols at 10 paces for the both of you, arrrgh.
|
Hey 1515greenlight,
When the magic goes "poof," and you are left staring at the mode control panel wondering which buttons to push and when the last time you actually had your hands on a set of flight controls outside the terminal airspace, your guard/reserve FO will calmly fly and talk on the radio (yes, at the same time) and think how much easier it is to to do this while not having to still coordinate a successfull end to a wartime mission. You see, most of us flew without any magic, with great success, and under the most stressfull of flight conditions, before having to watch guys like you depend on automation. Normally I'm easy going, but you just begged for a face shot. |
Originally Posted by Silver2Gold
(Post 562998)
Hey 1515greenlight,
When the magic goes "poof," and you are left staring at the mode control panel wondering which buttons to push and when the last time you actually had your hands on a set of flight controls outside the terminal airspace, your guard/reserve FO will calmly fly and talk on the radio (yes, at the same time) and think how much easier it is to to do this while not having to still coordinate a successfull end to a wartime mission. You see, most of us flew without any magic, with great success, and under the most stressfull of flight conditions, before having to watch guys like you depend on automation. Normally I'm easy going, but you just begged for a face shot. |
Originally Posted by TimoC
(Post 563002)
Me thinks you didn't smack him hard enough:eek:
|
Originally Posted by Silver2Gold
(Post 562998)
Hey 1515greenlight,
When the magic goes "poof," and you are left staring at the mode control panel wondering which buttons to push and when the last time you actually had your hands on a set of flight controls outside the terminal airspace, your guard/reserve FO will calmly fly and talk on the radio (yes, at the same time) and think how much easier it is to to do this while not having to still coordinate a successfull end to a wartime mission. You see, most of us flew without any magic, with great success, and under the most stressfull of flight conditions, before having to watch guys like you depend on automation. Normally I'm easy going, but you just begged for a face shot. In case you forgot, us DeltaNorth boys got some DC9s, and they don't have any of that fancy RNAV stuff. Normally I'm easy going too, but you just begged for a face shot as well. :rolleyes: I respect military pilots. My father is retired AF. But come on man, it's a two way street. |
Originally Posted by Rhino Driver
(Post 563008)
I agree. Smack him again Silver. Naa, wait a minute, give the poor slug a break. Ya know, the funny thing with these ridiculous remarks/comments/debates is, the mil guys never seem to start them, but always seem to finish them. Usually in a professional manner as well I must add. ;)
|
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 563012)
I know! Because obviously a civilian pilot is completely incapable of flying raw data & talking on the radios:eek: at the same time.
In case you forgot, us DeltaNorth boys got some DC9s, and they don't have any of that fancy RNAV stuff. Normally I'm easy going too, but you just begged for a face shot as well. I respect military pilots. My father is retired AF. But come on man, it's a two way street. Ask a Connie DC-8 driver. 26 DC-8's. 26 different cockpit configurations. PDI's. Going into South America. Or an old Henson BE-99 driver who flew a bird with a sticky ILS by the F/O's right knee. The old guys knew. The young one's didn't always catch on. 17 people died in a CFIT crash because of it. The company response? "That's what we pay insurance for." "Magic" was a VOR and an ADF...no autopilot and maybe working radar. I don't worry about magic going poof. I hand fly to and from altitude and hand fly approaches unless we have to use the magic. Then again maybe it's easier since I don't fly ultralight 73's or light twin 76's...:rolleyes: I fly a 74-400.:cool: (relax...a little humor...) And Rhino...as far as running off to the cockpit to fly in a strike? Careful junior...I have an Eastern Battle Star on my lapel. And 28 years. Not one Eastern pilot got hired by your fine organization back then. Your guys just took our airplanes and routes...didn't see any DAL guys demanding that DAL hire Eastern pilots. You're welcome for the job we made available for you by providing the extra front seats. Remember, this got cranked up over guys who felt an entitlement to their job and insinuated that others in the regional arena were lesser beings. Funny how you got your panties in a wad when someone dared to speak up. So Rhino...what were you doing in 1989? The lesson? The only reason anyone is where they are is luck on the day HR decided who to hire and seniority. Other than that, we're all equal...blue collar working stiffs. So if you don't want stones tossed at you, don't toss them yourself. |
Originally Posted by 1515greenlight
(Post 563071)
Indeed...and exactly my point. My dad was AF too, and I have all the respect in the world for the guys who have been there. But after having been through the wringer on my own dime...as have many others; flown and flown with guys who operated low level IFR in crap that no military guy would have dreamed of, it get's a bit old hearing how nobody else can do it as well as a mil driver. Hell, it would have been a dream to have two functioning ILS's...and a fantasy if they were the same manufacturer...and decade!
Ask a Connie DC-8 driver. 26 DC-8's. 26 different cockpit configurations. PDI's. Going into South America. Or an old Henson BE-99 driver who flew a bird with a sticky ILS by the F/O's right knee. The old guys knew. The young one's didn't always catch on. 17 people died in a CFIT crash because of it. The company response? "That's what we pay insurance for." "Magic" was a VOR and an ADF...no autopilot and maybe working radar. I don't worry about magic going poof. I hand fly to and from altitude and hand fly approaches unless we have to use the magic. Then again maybe it's easier since I don't fly ultralight 73's or light twin 76's...:rolleyes: I fly a 74-400.:cool: (relax...a little humor...) And Rhino...as far as running off to the cockpit to fly in a strike? Careful junior...I have an Eastern Battle Star on my lapel. And 28 years. Not one Eastern pilot got hired by your fine organization back then. Your guys just took our airplanes and routes...didn't see any DAL guys demanding that DAL hire Eastern pilots. You're welcome for the job we made available for you by providing the extra front seats. Remember, this got cranked up over guys who felt an entitlement to their job and insinuated that others in the regional arena were lesser beings. Funny how you got your panties in a wad when someone dared to speak up. So Rhino...what were you doing in 1989? The lesson? The only reason anyone is where they are is luck on the day HR decided who to hire and seniority. Other than that, we're all equal...blue collar working stiffs. So if you don't want stones tossed at you, don't toss them yourself. |
Neither of you guys are acting professional. Civilian, military... why don't all of you take your childish argument to some other thread. We are trying to discuss real problems here.
|
[quote=1515greenlight;563071]flown with guys who operated low level IFR in crap that no military guy would have dreamed of, quote]
I guess my fixed card ADF , suction powered instruments, military aircraft approach into Colorado Springs during a snow storm doesn't count. :eek: There is an old expresion that RNs use: remember 50% of the Drs you work with graduated in the lower half of their class. The same applies to pilots - both civilian and military trained. |
Originally Posted by 1515greenlight
(Post 563071)
Indeed...and exactly my point. My dad was AF too, and I have all the respect in the world for the guys who have been there. But after having been through the wringer on my own dime...as have many others; flown and flown with guys who operated low level IFR in crap that no military guy would have dreamed of, it get's a bit old hearing how nobody else can do it as well as a mil driver. Hell, it would have been a dream to have two functioning ILS's...and a fantasy if they were the same manufacturer...and decade!
Ask a Connie DC-8 driver. 26 DC-8's. 26 different cockpit configurations. PDI's. Going into South America. Or an old Henson BE-99 driver who flew a bird with a sticky ILS by the F/O's right knee. The old guys knew. The young one's didn't always catch on. 17 people died in a CFIT crash because of it. The company response? "That's what we pay insurance for." "Magic" was a VOR and an ADF...no autopilot and maybe working radar. I don't worry about magic going poof. I hand fly to and from altitude and hand fly approaches unless we have to use the magic. Then again maybe it's easier since I don't fly ultralight 73's or light twin 76's...:rolleyes: I fly a 74-400.:cool: (relax...a little humor...) And Rhino...as far as running off to the cockpit to fly in a strike? Careful junior...I have an Eastern Battle Star on my lapel. And 28 years. Not one Eastern pilot got hired by your fine organization back then. Your guys just took our airplanes and routes...didn't see any DAL guys demanding that DAL hire Eastern pilots. You're welcome for the job we made available for you by providing the extra front seats. Remember, this got cranked up over guys who felt an entitlement to their job and insinuated that others in the regional arena were lesser beings. Funny how you got your panties in a wad when someone dared to speak up. So Rhino...what were you doing in 1989? The lesson? The only reason anyone is where they are is luck on the day HR decided who to hire and seniority. Other than that, we're all equal...blue collar working stiffs. So if you don't want stones tossed at you, don't toss them yourself. The only medals Rhino and I are authorized to wear were just earned flying in combat. Just being shot at or over places where being captured and tortured was a little more of a concern than a merger. So please greenlight, tell us military guys more about Battle Stars on your lapel and what it's like to have guys die in the cockpit. And then, call us junior again and tell wild and crazy stories about low level IFR and ILS's to a guy who landed on a ship at night or who had to cross several continents above 70,000 feet with no electrics and between countries wanting to kill him. Please, educate us on what it's like to be airborne and in harms way...... |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:53 AM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands