AMR walks out on Pilot negotiations
 

This from Dallas Morning news or The Startle-Gram
To be fair last year APA Neg Committee members stormed out one morning.
What's an mediator to do? It's his or her job to keep them all in one room. It's his or her job to make progress.
Speaking on the phone with one of my pilot buddies who is divorced and went through divorce mediation in Florida. His mediator was really aggressive and forceful in trying to make negotiations happen, so much so that my buddy felt he was being railroaded. Finally his attorney said, "just walk out, leave and go to a pub."
Divorce mediators are monitored (graded) by the courts in their success rates. If they do not have a high %age of success in out of court settlements, then they less likely to be assigned work by the courts. Florida requires court ordered mediation for divorce before court date.

This contract seems more like a divorce than contract negotiations.
7576

UPDATE: AA, APA trade shots about negotiations
>
> 12:05 PM Thu, Apr 02, 2009
>
> Terry Maxon
>
> UPDATE: I originally reprinted an excerpt from the American Airlines update
> on pilot negotiations. Now I've seen the Allied Pilots Association update
> from the union's Wednesday hotline.
>
> So we'll just lay out the two versions of what happened Wednesday:
>
> Management's interpretation, from American Airlines Negotiations
>
> "The agenda for Wednesday morning was to discuss Scope-related issues,
> something that we recognize is a sensitive and important issue to pilots. AA
> negotiators began the session with an industry comparison on the competitive
> importance of commuter feed. Within minutes, it became evident that the
> behavior of APA's negotiating committee chairman would make it impossible to
> have a productive discussion on Scope and talks were recessed for the day."
>

Allied Pilots Association interpretation, from the APA website:
>
> "More valuable bargaining time was lost today when management's negotiators
> walked out of scope discussions 10 minutes into the day's session after
> becoming upset and frustrated when questioned about the content of their
> scope-related slide show comparing regional carrier operations within the
> industry. In addition, the management negotiators were unable to answer some
> basic questions or explain the intent of their presentation. The federal
> mediator was unable to convince them to return to the table, so the result
> was an entire day of bargaining lost."

Soon the bonuses for Top Talent will be made public again.
Probably "just a couple million each"
Middle of April AMR will pay out more more more money to it's management execs.
When questioned they will respond "In order to keep top talent we must pay them bonuses. The head hunters are calling. We need these talented people to stay here."
I say "The only talented people at AA are the employees that took deep pay cuts to keep this company out of BK."
AMR will respond "No the pilots only took pay cuts to keep their pensions, it shows how selfish they are and how they do not understand executive compensation. Perhaps they should have gone to management business school.
I love how they always spin we took pay cuts to save our pensions. That is classic!
7576

Deja vu all over again
 

7576,

"Walkouts" have become a standard ceremony in contract negotiations. In fact, if no one has yet walked out, it means that an agreement is still far away. Your prediction: is dead on. I think management officials keep this response on a laminated wallet card for quick reference. :rolleyes:

Quick Reference card reply: C YA, or just YA

Keep the talent? Last I heard the unemployment rate was at 8.5%. I bet they could find some pretty damn good talent in that pool if they looked, and I bet they'd be cheap.

Interesting lines being drawn on the APA scope debate.

According to management's posting, American is basically looking for Delta scope. Expansion into the use of 76 seat RJ's and deleting specific references to American Eagle, so they can start the bidding (a'la Delta Connection).

APA responds with a proposal that American Airlines pilots perform all American flying with the provision for an eventual merger of Eagle.

American's management is basically arguing the same position as D-ALPA. That bringing flying to mainline would drive up costs unacceptably (or as as ALPA says it, would drive the mainline pay down unacceptably).

For all of us, it is interesting to watch it unfold. As a Delta pilot, I'm pulling for the APA.

Could they be waiting for the First Qtr. financials on all the airlines?

Don't give an inch!

Yeah I hear there are some ex AIG execs looking for work.:rolleyes:

.... deleted

I realize I could get flamed here for saying this and want to point out that I am no defendant of ridiculous bonuses...but isn't that argument exactly what everyone on here hates about the pilot group? Blasting the guy that is willing to work for less and lowers the bar for the rest? We all hate the guy who goes non-union and will work for table scraps so it just seems to me that this statement is a little hypocritical in a sense.

Table scraps for an AA exec is still more than you'll ever make as a pilot, no matter who you fly for..

Hold the line! Dont give up on scope!

Max AE FO

The problem most of us have with the recently publicized bonuses is that the executives didn't deserve them based on their performance. That's what Pilotfrog was referring to I'll bet. I have no problem whatsoever giving a bonus to a talented manager with a profitable track record. Bonuses for the talented ensure that you keep the talented. Bonuses for executives regardless of performance is the rub. If your company has poor executive talent, you're better off paying less for a new kid right out of MBA school. He/she couldn't do much worse - as witnessed by AIG, GM, Chrysler, Bear Stearns, etc....

Carl

Yes the APA needs to be hard negotiators, be firm... be like this guy (got to read the captions) especially the note about the shoes....

YouTube - ENZYTE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Unw...om=PL&index=23

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC5Ls...CF4D1&index=25

Notice the Captain and FO's salute in the last video.

Come on guys! Keep strong and focused...dont budge! Get what you are worth!

AA and Eagle merging under a 76 seat scope agreement would be disasterous. Within minutes, AA would gain several thousand employees, then furlough 60% of them and farm out 76 seat flying to Air Pakistan or some BS regional startup. Flight schools would rejoice because of all the "new jobs."

This profession has already given up too much scope. Look where it got us today!

Has either side mentioned "impasse" yet ?

FF

Sure - that's all American pilots need. Ten different regionals all running around with "American Connection" painted on the side. Worked great for Delta.

Hold strong on scope. Don't let up.

I agree.

Get all flying to mainline and take perhaps the top 50% of the Eagle pilots. The rest can be offered preferential interviews once the furloughees are back. That way 100-seaters can be flown by mainline where they should be and the furloughees and a substantial percentage of Eagle pilots can benefit.

The bottom half of the eagle pilots would surely understand that sacrificing their low-wage RJ F/O positions for an chance at interview for a decent job sometime in the future is the BEST for this profession. Most are young and can afford this, while those older and more senior cannot.

All in all it's the best possible scenario.

While most of the young guys (while i fit the age group, i do not agree with many of the younger guy's general perspectives and general sense of entitlement) do not understand is that the days of going to a regional for 3-4 years and moving on to a major is pretty much gone.

Guys who have given up scope have for whatever the reasons they voted to do so, (pay, other incentives, greed, complacency, ego) have nearly irreprebly crippled the prospect for my generation (mid 20's) to have a serious career in this industry.
NO PILOT GROUP SHOULD ENTERTAIN THE IDEA OF GIVING UP ANY MORE SCOPE. We need to fight to get it back. And that is going to be the fight of our careers, spanning a couple decades.

In the future, in Mainline contracts, the pilots have to fight for min fleet size conditions with ratios of mainline to express getting more and more favorable as contract after contract in the future are signed. This is more important than anything else, including pay raises mainly at the senior level. Pay scales need to be smoothed out more, allowing more pay while still junior.

I seriously could write an essay and what I said above was just a blurb of what I'm thinking. I know 100 pros and cons to what I suggested, so please realize that I'm advocating something that I understand is extrordinarily hard to attain.

How noble of you to propose sacrificing the bottom 50%. I'm sure they will jump at the chance to have no job and just the chance to interview sometime in the future.:rolleyes:

"Selling out" the bottom 50% of your own list??? Wow, I bet you would be a popular "guy" amongst those "sacrificial lambs" that make up the bottom 50% of the list:cool:

Besides.....when AA has 2000+ pilots on furlough, where do you see "EGL's chosen ones" - AKA Top 50% sitting on the AA seniority list?? When you have 2000+ AA pilots on the street waiting to come back, and you want to put another 1500+ "chosen" EGL pilots in the mix.....good luck on that mess:cool:.

Seeing that it's been 6+ years and AA still has that many guys/gals on the street, the EGL guys/gals would be waiting for many years to see the light at the end of that tunnel:confused:

All and all....sounds like an unrealistic pipe dream.

I say go APA!

Yeah he's a real hero. Just ask him where he thinks those Eagle pilots we "take" should go on our seniority list. DOH. That's the same demand they have made every other time we have approached them with attempts to merge the seniority lists. RJ captain to 767 international captain. Get real.

I guess we should expect nothing less from a group that tried to steal away our 80 flying under the failed 80-80-80 campaign.

Actually, MANY are willing to do just that...........even some that post here !

I'm just agreeing with what they claim to want. These pilots don't want any more RJ's at their company and agree that all flying should be done by mainline as the APA demands. In their wisdom, borne of several months or a year or two as RJ F/O's and bolstered by discussions at the dinner table with mom and dad (they still live with their parents), they somehow fail to realize that moving all flying to mainline WILL come with some sacrifices, at least at AMR.

That means the need for FAR less of the pilots who currently fly those RJ's as many would indeed be parked (some immeadiately and the rest gradually). Since this IS a seniority based business, it would only be reasonable to see that those at the bottom half would be odd men out. I've heard from many here how they'd be willing to sacrifice their low-wage RJ F/O position for the opportunity to get a mainline pilot job, but unless their fantasy somehow included that they'd be AUTOMATICALLY hired along with only those planes that DO make the transition, they didn't think things thru.

AMR will not just move ALL those planes over to AA. Since they won't be doing that, how can all those pilots expect to have seats there when the music stops here ?

Remember, in the hypothetical case that AA did take all our flying and even some of our planes, AA pilots are still out on the street and THEY would be brought back to do flying before any of the bottom kids here would be..........and SHOULD, after all it will be THEIR airline and seniority list then. It would be MANY, MANY years before most of them had an opportunity to reclaim a postion on the bottom of the "new" AA pilot list reflying a larger RJ even if they were promised future employment.

Oh, I get it...............they think that AA will just take all our planes and our pilots, find a bunch of money to grow the airline by adding 200 new 100-seaters, boost pay for all, recall all furloughees and everyone will go into the sunshine holding hands and thinking what a wonderful life it is now.

Well, in that case, perhaps it's time to ask mom to pass the green beans and turn up the volume on the TV because Leave it to Beaver is coming on and since we're in fantasy land where everything always works the way we want it and there is never any down side to our desires, we might as well enjoy it while we can....................oh and pass the butter, please.

LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It IS an unrealistic pipe dream for many of the new kids on the block. They profess their fervant desires, but fail to consider the REAL ramifications of those desires.

That is indeed what is known as a "pipe dream".

IF the APA were to claim all current Eagle flying, let's consider what WOULD likely happen.

That flying is now MAINLINE flying under APA control. Let's not even argue what pay and benefits would be invloved, because that just complicates this discussion.

Since that flying is now theirs, their FIRST priority is to get their furloughed pilots employment...........and it SHOULD be. It's THEIR FLYING. It would be logical to assume since the majority of Eagle's little 37 and 44 seat guaranteed money loser RJ's (and eventually the 50-seaters) would be parked or replaced rapidly. That would mean as those aircraft are removed from Eagle during a transition period that would be virtually certain to occur, they'd be replaced by those mainline 737 orders already under way and new aircraft that might actually make money (especially under the increased costs of a new AA pilots contract) like 100-seaters. Those new jobs (MAINLINE jobs) would be offered to AA furloughees.

A "transition period" would involve the downsizing of Eagle with a simultaneous upsizing of AA as AA reclaims their former flying with new aircraft and Eagle parks their hopeless losers (and furloughs). Eventually, (say 18-36 months) Eagle is reduced to its 47 CRJ-700's (it exercises its 22 orders recently won on greivance) which is about 500 pilots and perhaps they'll still have an equal number of 50-seaters to fly to places that can still somewhat support them as they need frequency.

We're at about 1000 Eagle pilots now.

Then the "transition period" ends and Eagle disolves and is now part of AA. By then, most if not all the remaining AA furloughees are back who want to come back and Eagle pilots are likely merged onto the AA list or are now actually "one airline". About 550 of those pilots ALREADY are on the AA list and the remaining would likely get stapled with some fence protection if they were senior Eagle Rights captains (minor details involving a couple of hundred pilots at most by then).

The bottom 1500 Eagle pilots ?

Well, you figure it out.

At that point they may or may not have guaranteed right of employment, but THAT is NOT the function of the APA to negotiate, it is Eagle ALPA. My guess is they'd try and may win that, but just as likley the best that can be offered is preferential interview at AA.

Remember ! They were furloughed from Eagle who was liquidiating (dissolving) itself and NOT from AA, So why would they have automatic employment rights at AA (again, especially if the APA's responsibility is not pilots from OTHER carriers) ?

Of course, perhaps the "Leave it to Beaver" scenario is a better fantasy to cling to for junior Eagle pilots. You know the saying, "be careful for what you wish for ?".

Well, many of them wish for "NO MORE RJ's at Eagle !".

Sadly, many of them fail to consider the realities and ramifications of their wishes, but you can't blame them as most have a couple of years in this industry at most and don't know s%$t from shinola.

No phallocranial boy, that is not what I think and not what would happen (see previous post). Most of the pilots who would end up at AA after a transition period already have AA numbers and the rest would be placed as a result of negotiation or more likely arbitration. Staple with fences is most likely for them.

You and your 80-80-80 fantasies must be driving you insane, for you certainly already are.


Actually, I like the idea of 737-73.7-73.7 !

We'll call up Arpey and offer to fly your 737's for $73.70/hour with a guarantee of 73.7 hours per month !

I'm sure he'll jump right on it.....................jeez, what a hopeless fruitcake you are !

Let's aim higher. 777, 77 hours, $77/hr

Be careful !

Phallocranial boy would likely either explode or walk into the nearest mall with an AK-47 and swan dive onto the front page of tomorrows USA Today, because someone told him they saw an Eagle pilot in there.

Don't forget, you're not dealing with an emotionally stable mind with him and ANYTHING is possible.

:eek:

EGL flyer....

Keeping this brief and short winded.....I can appreciate you ideas, thoughts, and opinion on how the wicked "triangle" should work....but again, it's just that, an unrealistic pipe dream.

When your willing to sell out the bottom 50% of your own seniority list, I can see that the APA guys/gals would have warm-fuzzies in having someone like you running amuck in their own ranks. I find it VERY hard for your theory to hold water in the fact that the majority of the bottom 50% (1000+ pilots) subscribe to your plan....even if there are a half a dozen proponets posted on APC.

If you want to know anything about "selling out" people in the past, just ask your senior buddies at EGL about the Man, Myth, and Legend - Homer Pugh's "16 years mistake". Having witnessed this first hand, learn from the past mistakes and don't be the next "Homer" in selling out your colleagues.

I still don't understand your logic as to why AMR would every agree to such a marriage in a common seniority list....why would they do that when the have a "Whip Saw" already in place??? After all it's all the Vouge in todays managment tactics. In management's eyes...."work good, work long time".

I will leave you with this, just remember "history often repeats itself". In the past, APA and EGL ALPA went through many meetings/talks/interpreted previously written agreements involving something called a "Flow Through v Flow Back"....how did that work for you?? 126ish flowed over to AA's mainline, and something along the lines of 700ish AA furloughs flowed back to occupy RJ CA seats. History has shown that there will always be some form of separation in the two pilot groups, AMR mgt has already proven that.

To keep in the concentration of the thread, Best luck to the APA Guys/Gals and your current negotiations....give management heck and get what the industry deserves on all levels.

Actually the last time it was staple and DOH for furlough only. Fences except for some CRJ 700 captain seats. The balking point was new hire placement.

It isn't me that is the problem as one pilot cannot "sell out" all the others. Many of these junior pilots have said they'd sacrifice their jobs for a shot at the big leagues. The Eagle ALPA MEC individual that you mention didn't do that all himself (an erronous assumption). He had plenty of help from national, management and other pilots and as someone who doesn't have to ask anyone about the past because he went thru it all and understands IT ALL (more then you), I know that you can be screwed over as easily as sold out. Perhaps you can talk to some of your buddies at the APA, on that very subject.........you know.........screwing people over.

B scale,TWA, junior pilot sacrifical lambs, the attempt to stiff many flowthru's out of their transfer rights, etc., the APA are THE source on "screwing over".............they wrote the book.

Your right though, the subject itself is also complete fodder in and of itself (some STILL cannot accept this) as AMR WILL NEVER accept any joining of AA and Eagle, but I thought I'd play devil's advocate in showing those young, hopeful and clueless how easy it could be to realize your dream, but be horrified at the results.

It was a "Leave it to Beaver" fantasy (a fact you apparently didn't pick up on) that will NEVER happen. The only people who think it will is the APA, a certain segment of AA pilots and a good deal of wide-eyed young Eagle F/O's so new to the industry, they never been thru ANY contractual amandement experience and are still trying to master the ability to make a decent night visual approach in a turbojet powered aircraft.

In time these new young pilots WILL master that maneauver and they WILL learn the realities of this industry, management tactics and current strengths and the psychotic, dysfunctional and symbiotic relationship of AMR, AA and Eagle.

The pie eyed fantasy of one big happy family here is just that...................fantasy.

ef,
You're using the word NEVER too much.
7576

Perhaps you are correct.

From here on out, I'll limit its use to the only area it will be certain to apply to.....................that is the merging of AA and Eagle or the acquisition of Eagles RJ's by AA and/or the APA.

That will NEVER happen, but aside from that.............well, who knows ?

Great...now I've to hope that I can "screw over" the next addition to the AA seniority list as was done to me upon my arrival.

Sorry, but I'm not pulling for AA merging with anything more than 49% of the next carrier it buys.

Hey, APA--try this..."The Company shall not acquire in whole or in part any other certificated carrier's pilots while AA pilots are on furlough. Additionally, no more than 49% of the acquired carrier's operations can be merged into the AA seniority list." Nah, too good to be true....

X

16 years ago I heard alot of people say that all the 4Eagles would never be merged... well, the 4 diffrent airline unions were merged. Not saying that its gonna happen, actually Id be surprised if it did, but ... well you know the saying, " Never say never."

What AMR really wants is to be rid of Eagle, not combine anything. There is no way on God's green earth that AMR would merge the company's voluntarily. Right now, AE is a dying duck with obsolete 37-50 seat money holes and only 25 70-seat narrow bodies. And if you count the 22 70 seaters given to the company (via the secret "verbal" deal with Bombardier) by a compliant arbitrator, 47 potentially. That's compared to I think about 150 that Delta has now after they've turned Delta ALPA a company union.

What AE should be doing is flying fast efficient Q400s on short-medium range feeder routes instead of very high cost per seat mile small jets.

What they really want is the flexibility to outsource small jet and narrow body flying (70+ seaters) as they see fit. What they want is Delta plus and a complete surrender of scope by the APA.

'In order to keep top talent we must pay them bonuses'.
Too bad that thinking does not apply to the pilot group.
Just my .01 cent
Fred