captjns:

What! :eek:

We agree on something!!! Just kidding.;)

It was reported last night on the local news here in Collier County, FL (Naples) that county EMT workers are currently in negotiations for higher pay, improved working conditions, better working hours, retirement, etc. etc.

This phenom transcends all careers, vocations, and industries.


atp

My god... what is this world coming to?:) I can't stress enough to follow one's dreams, but don't have tunnel vision... leave yourself an out.

Happy aviating atp.

Looking to start this summer @ Naples-Air for the PPL, while working full time (M-F;1500-0000), then on to ATP around the first of the year for the rest of my licenses & ratings.:D

Good for you! Stick with it, before you know it you will be drawing a paycheck doing something you really enjoy:D

It is good to be reallistic and have both feet on the ground. If flying prevents a pilot from supporting $$$$ the family, change directions.
BUT!!!!..... Remember we spend more time of our lives in our jobs than we do with our family. So, if we are not happy with the job we have, we are going to doom ourselves to be unhappy most of our lives. The key is trying to balance both (easier said than done)
Just a little food for thought

Granted there are those select few that have gotten jobs without the standard 1000 TT/100 MEL. Only a few went though flight training with me. But as for me and MOST of my colleagues we had to wait until we met the airline mins. I can't speak for my colleagues, but I've already had some good time and also been down right kicked in the teeth. But, I would never say it was easy, and my wife will atest to that.
Yes getting financing was relatively easy, that how I paid for my training. And now I am paying. Yes, I believe there are too many DRIVERS in the industry and it has been my displeasure to flying with some of them. But until we can get them weeded out and the pilot to take back their union. The industry will stay in its chaotic spiral. I also believe the good days will come back. The high salaries of the past won't or the times of passengers dressing up for their first jet ride. But modest pay, benefits and QOL will. Until then, I will stick it out.

Re-read my post. I said it is easier, not easy. Imagine this, if you can, a pilot earning 200k a year is spending much more than a pilot making 30k. How easy is it for a pilot to go from a job earning 30k to another job (outside of aviation) earning 30k? I would imagine that it is a lot easier than finding another 200k job. Only when we start acting like a true union and cracking some scab sculls and shutting down companies will we regain what we have lost.

enough awready sheesh
 

speak fur yurself i`m off to the exotic east:) --well maybe thats the weak/feeble/old :D being "driven off".

maybe if we all stopped all this gloom-n-doom blubbering, and concentrated on being topguns it would be better.

Here`s de plan---dump the wife, in some cases thats a plus anyhow lol.--leave the kids with granny, she looks after them most times anyhow lol.
proceed to the exotic east(belly dancing etc) work for 5 years return with a lot of dough, and 3 extra wives lol (you`ve become a muslim they can have 4 wives) :eek: pay off all debts live happily ever after.

I love it!!! An old timer who flew with Orville and Wilber, related to me the theory of the ration of the number motors on an airplane to the number of wives.

1 wife you are a single engine flyer
2 wives you are on the DC-9 or B-737 – getting ready to transition to the B727… I know… I know… keep on reading… it has three engines… but they are small round motors… so you are getting ready for the big 3 motor jet.
3 wives you are on the DC-10 or L-1011
4 wives… you made it to the top… the whale B-747

Hope you are on the inside track to a 4 motor jet.:D

Good Old Days
 

What is the current definition of good?

What are the good old days if they were not great pay, status and tons of time off? A few have mentioned that the good old days will come back or the the pendulum swings both ways but if it doesnt go back to the way it was in 1978 then they will never really come back.

Nothing lasts forever and every dog has his day. The pilot profession is on the glide never to return to the peak of the 1970's. I think it will plateau for a few years then keep sliding. There seems no other place for it to go.

SkyHigh

Plan
 

I am sure that plan will work great.:rolleyes: Often a happy life is built upon home, friends and family. If you have to sell out your own country to stay in the saddle I don't think there is much value in that kind of life. No matter how many wives you get you will always be a stranger and eventually come home to a country who dosent know who you are or care anymore. I use to fly with plenty of pilots who had just returned from extended stays overseas and they were wealthy lonesome zombies with big pools in their backyards but no one who wanted to swim in them.

SKyHigh

Money may not buy love, but it sure can rent it. It may not buy happiness, but you can park the yacht or Ferrari next to it.
About 60% of the pilot population has found some wives do not lead to happiness or wealth. Almost 100% have found that a good looking twenty something girlfriend can create instant happiness and be easily replaced if lost or stolen.

Nice
 

Those ideas sound incredibly shallow now and will be awfully hollow at 70.

SkyHigh

I can't call your recipe for happiness profound, but if it makes you happy go for it. I may be hollow at 70, but maybe you and your wife will end up that way also.
I wouldn't dream of passing judgement on someone's path to happiness. You seem to make a hobby of it.

I agree with the first sentence, but after that you loose me. How does going overseas to work = selling out your home country? :confused: My country sold me out by letting greedy Harvard MBAs destroy my career and steal my pension. I've gone overseas and found a way to re-start my career and perhaps reach my original career goals and financial expectations. That certainly wouldn't have happened had I stayed in the good ole USA. I enjoy my life overseas. I have far more friends than I did in the States and my son will grow up in an enlightened multi-cultural environment.

I define myself as an American because I believe in the premise of America as founded by our fore fathers. Individual freedom being one of the main components of that original premise. I need not live within the confines of America's borders to pursue my happiness nor does leaving those borders mean I forsake my belief in America.


Typhoonpilot

Actually I am in my 50s and have seen more expensive throw away relationships among those who married(some multiple times) than not. Any small mammal can reproduce, and the idea that your legacy is important to the world takes an ego of truly massive proportion. The race will survive without you creating a herd of children.
I am very happy and would not dream of passing judgement on what you consider neccessary for your happiness.
I have quite a lot to show for my time, it's just not in the currency you choose to trade in. Can't we just all get along?

So then, perhaps you will share with us your concept of legacy and describe how your view is going to change you or the world for the better.
Again, I don't pretend to be wise enough to judge someone or tote up their life's work and present a meaningful accounting. Maybe you have aquired this skill and can fully account for the true meaning of life. Good luck and all the best. I will respect other's choices whether they respect mine or not, we don't all have the same goals.

My Bundyisms were partially a joke, but then so is life.

Country
 

Your company sold you out, not your country. Home and family have meaning. You must have left something of value behind. You traded your home for personal gain. I don't know you but I have know many pilots who did the same and there was a high price paid. I think it would be a fair assessment to say that most people would not make the same choice. I hope it works out for you.

SKyHigh

Judgment
 

I wasn't passing judgement. Most people would consider your philosophy to be shallow for a high school kid. I don't think it will make you happy either.

SkyHigh

You thought wrong. Calling something shallow is passing judgement. I am very happy and want for nothing, I also hope that you are happy.
It is always amazing to me what makes others happy. I may think their selection is wrong for me, but I'd never tell them that or presume my choice to be better. I make a few half joking remarks and all of a sudden you seem to know what my life is all about. You missed.
When one starts making pronouncements about the way others should live their lives the conversation gets trite in a hurry. Many of your posts don't sound too happy, perhaps you'd like to extoll the virtues of life as you live it-perfect for you and wrong for me. Best of luck to you.

SkyHigh,

Despite some of my posts and bantering, I do think that you bring some balance to the boards that is worthwhile. However it is statements like these that ailenate your cause and diminish your stance as far as I'm concerned.

How can you make the statement that he MUST have left something of value behind, without knowing that particular individuals circumstance? By your arguements, everybody who works in this industry sacrifices family or life or money or whatever. That arguement could be made for any career path, and it's not fair to use a blanket statement to argue against a single individual.

You make the assumption that pilots who do overseas work must sacrifice their patriotism or family or whatever. Why's that? Many pilots I know work overseas. Most of them take their families. Those that do move families, do so as a GROUP DECISION. I spent time overseas as a kid, and am a better person for it. I don't consider myself screwed up, or that my family sacrificed because of it- quite the contrary... I think that we are better people because of it.

Has my family made sacrifices for my career? Sure. But in the same period of time, I've made sacrifices for my family. It's a two way street, and we (as a whole) are much more happy because of it.

Oh, and for the record not every pilot job out there kills the family because of travel away and missed anniversaries or endless nights in crappy hotel rooms. I for one am home in the house more than my wife, and she works an office job.... (and not because she has to... because she wants to.)

I come from a Pan Am family...As a kid I remember holidays with Pan Am, Eastern, and National people around my parents house...I remember the stories that were told and can't count how many shoulders I rode on as a kid out to a flight line to see the new "jet" at the time...All before TSA...Maybe that's the good 'ol days...Before TSA...lol...But I can also add I'm very happy now too...Left seat job on a widebody...Great business ventures working for me...Great family life....I guess I'm lucky...Very very lucky...Because I can't spell worth a dang, and from what I've seen posted I should be dig'n ditches with my grammer skills...lol

sigh!!
 

Sky ahh Sky , now lets take that part about "sell out your own country" lets see now --me i was born and grew up in a british colony in south america, went to "the land of the free" to learn 2 fly (burnside-ott), got a job in Trinidad+Tobago--GO SOCA WARRIORS--flew for BWEE for 30 years, (by the way my parents were descendants of Irish rebels banished to Barbados) then decided Air Jamaica payed much better so went over to Jam and flew for them for 8 years, got my "green card" LEGALLY and came up to help out u yanks:p heh heh, yes where were we oh yeah my country, --which is?? i don know take yur pick --Ireland?-Barbados? Guyana? Trinidad?--or (for the last year) "the land of the free" although seeing the "storm troopers" of the TSA/CUSTOMS/INS in action these days i`m beginning to wonder if i made a wise choice:(

ps i don`t want a bunch of unwashed lol swimming in my pool anyhow.

You (and all the rest of us) have our muslim and Latino buddies to thank for these petty inconveniences...

Cuts both ways.;)

Josh
 

Josh,

I know that at first glance you have no use for me, but I hope to be winning you over as a friend.

Skyhigh

Beep Wrong
 

this may come as a huge relavation to u but not everyone is drooling to be a member of "the land of the free" .I for one am here because i married a beautiful american lady, who blessed me with 2 beautiful "american" daughters and to them this is home. besides i`ll have to assume ur desendants either came over on the "mayflower" or were here when that bunch landed--because surely you would not be making comments like that if u 2 were an "immigrant";)

No I'll feelings, and I'll definately buy the beer if we ever have the chance for one in person. I do actually understand your point of view because at some point or another, we are going to go through some of those stages of thought. I've been there myself (furloughed, watched my employer go Tango Uniform, applied at other regionals for less than unemployment wages). But then I realized that there are greener pastures out there, and I found them.

And as long as you remain open minded about others opinions and their viewpoints on the industry, I think that you do bring some valid points to the table. It's just the manner that you bring them that can be irritating. :D

You're right my company sold me out, thanks to the policies of my government to place big business interests ahead of the American worker. The leveraged buyout artists and Wall Street tycoons have been enabled by pro business policies at the expense of the worker for too long.

How dare you say that I traded my home for personal gain :mad: As Flyer Josh said, you don't know me and you certainly aren't qualifed to pass judgement on me.

I left my country temporarily for the betterment of myself and my family. There is no price to pay in the end for that. I am rewarded everyday in more ways than one. I have fantastic group of friends, a loving wife, and a wonderful son. I've been able to reach and exceed my career goals before the age of 40. I'll gladly stay where I am as long as it continues to be a rewarding experience. That may be for 5 more years or it may be for 20.


Typhoonpilot

I'm not an immigrant, my forebears were of course, but that was a long time ago. You are the one who regurgitated the Storm Trooper crap. I merely pointed out to whom we are beholden for the necessary hassles we now experience. Furthermore, we both digress...your immigration to the U.S. for whatever reason, has nothing to do with gist of this thread, nor does my response.

oh i`m sorry:o i didn`t realise that "the gist" of this thread was about "our muslim and latino buddies":rolleyes:

True, there needs to be a shortage.

Josh
 

Why should a family make those kinds of sacrifices? How could a father ask a wife and children to leave behind all that they ever knew in order to pursue a selfish quest? You don't have children yet and therefore don't know the true price of a life away from them.

Our friend must have left behind friends, grandparents, his home, siblings and most everything else that has a deeper value than a bland apartment in Hong Kong or whatever else he calls home now. The pilot is off living the dream while the kids go to a school with guards holding UZI's at the front door. Few places in the outside world are happy with the USA right now. I am sure that life inside the American compound isn't much fun for those left behind. I am sure that many got there with their families but I can assure you that most come home alone.

SkyHigh

Skyhigh

Its a means to to an end to earn a living to pay the bills and provide for the future. Judgement should not be made on those who choose to do so with the consent and support of family memebers. Without the usual editorial, as you, we have the privilege of making our own choices in life.

Time to give it a rest son.

Well said captj, another point sky, is that a large section of the "Old farts" like me started thier careers flying DC`3`s and just loved it, so for me at least --yes its a means to an end, but its also a career that has made me happy most all of the time, and i also could not have hoped for a better life,--another point to consider we americans (albeit i`m a newbie:D ) seem to believe that aviation revolves around the usa, agreed for us its ultimately important BUT in the rest of the world, its rapidly becomming "the day of the pilot" and aviation is booming, our problem here is this---we have approx 320 million people and 3 times the land mass of (for eg) India, they have 1.1 billion people:eek: and we have 10 times as many aircraft, --my buddy who is over there now flying a A320 told me that since Jet blue "recinded" an order for 12 A320`s, a airline in India got a supposedly happy suprise and got delivery of 5 all at once lol well 3 are sitting gleaming in the sun no pilots!!

Opinions
 

I understand that many of you work overseas and my aim is not to insult anyone. My point is that most people would not make the same choice and would not be happy living outside of the US. Often it seems that people make the overseas choice in a desperate attempt to salvage a failing career often at the expense of their personal life. If I were single perhaps I too would be in a foreign land however I don't think I would be the better for it. I worked with a large group of ex-overseas American pilots who returned to the US to fly for National Airlines when they started up. The results of so much time away was nothing to be admired.

Home, family and living where one wishes has a lot to due with life satisfaction. How can one build a full family life upon foreign soil? My only issue is in regards to pilots who try and make it work with families in tow. It would be easy to be drawn in by the shinny new A320's and enjoy being swept away with a foreign version of the dream, but for those left behind in the compound I am sure that it would be no fun and little would be gained.

SKyHigh

I was hired in the late 80’s flying international flights out of NY. I listened to the Captains say things like a car a month referencing their pay. I complained about getting stuck with the steak all the time as we dined crossing the Atlantic. Fast forward 12 years and I have a Flight attendant against the wall in the galley accusing them of hording all the pretzels. Alpo has failed the profession by not unifying all with strength nationally. They allowed financially stronger airlines pilots to prey on the careers of their brothers which weaken us all in the end.
The real test for this industry is whether or not the regional pilots can get unity and improve the working conditions via a different national union other than Alpo. They are the key I believe in saving the occupation. Their pay and working conditions can only go up.
Mach8Forest
:(

So are you telling me that the uncountable hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of Americans living abroad don't have full family lives? According to the US census the federal goverment ALONE has over half million people and the US department of state estimates that over 3 million US citizens make residence overseas.

Seems like a lot of unhappy, empty families by your definition. Oh and believe it or not, there are places in the world where the quality of life is much better than here in the US. I know many families that live in Dubai and live very weathly, full lives (the entire family). Many of them have "reimmigrated" the entire extended family away from the US.

Time to open your mind. In this era of worldwide commerce and industry, it's plain silly to think that you have to live in the US if you're a US citizen to be happy. Plenty of opportunity overseas and it's definately something that kids can easily adapt to and love. To back that point up, many of our prominent leaders lived overseas as children.

You might not choose to live overseas, but don't judge those who do, or determine that they are destined for unhappiness and broken families because of it. Remember... most overseas pilots in long term legitimate jobs take the family too.

Normal Life
 

It is not a normal life. Most anyone would agree. I am sure that it is survivable for some but not what most people would accept. Especially now when world opinion is against the US. Dubi might be safe today but to move there would be to make ones family a target. When does flying stop being a livelihood and become ones entire life? To me it seems that the love of the job blinds some. There is a price.

SKyHigh

on the humorous side
 

Sky`s problem is his wife WANTS him "overseas" lol just kidding sky:D

I do not think the views expressed by skyhigh is off base at all. This job is a difficult one and a lot of sacrifices have to be made to be "successful". The pay at the regional level is pathetic and the number of "good" airline jobs are slim. It takes a special person with a very understanding family to peruse a career in this industry today.

I had an opportunity to fly in China after 9/11. At the time it was either that or dig ditches. I chose to dig ditches but was fortunate to find another job in aviation before I went to home depot to buy a shovel.

My advice is fly to live do not live to fly!