wow digging ditches!!
 

pretty sad,:( my advice, --u should look into another career.

Sky:

I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore because some of the things you say are so far out of date that they lack any credibility. Flyer Josh and others have tried to point out to you again and again that what you say is not necessarily true. What happened to a group of guys 20 or 30 years ago has nothing to do with what may happen to the same group of guys today.

First of all, if you live in the Middle East, you do not necesarily live in a compound, let along an American compound. Stop watching CNN and believing everything you see on the TV. I live in a regular neighborhood without walls or fences. My neighbors are from all over the world. My wife can drive the car and she can walk down the street in normal western clothing.

Second, my friends who brought their families from the States are for the most part very happy with the move. They see their wives and kids much more than they did when they were flying in the States. Their overall family life quality has gone up, not down. Their kids will grow up in a rich multi-cultural environment and be so far ahead of the children in the States in areas like geography, language, religion, culture, and history that they will be a step ahead of others when they start their professional careers.

Third, world opinion is against the U.S. government, not Americans. Any educated person outside of the USA is able to make that differentiation.

Fourth, if you were to take 10 married couples of today and see how many were divorced 10 years from now, whether living in the States or having relocated overseas, the number would most likely be the same. Just because they got divorced while overseas doesn't mean the same wouldn't have happened to that couple if they had stayed in the States.

So just give it up Sky.


TP

I think most of the domestic flying pilots are scared of overseas flying...And that's why you see a negative response when it come to flying for an airline like Emirates...Those who are short sighted about relocation to a far part of the world are probably the type that were affraid to cross a busy street as a kid. I would shoot myself if I was stuck bidding on Domestic flying from a hub to an exotic location like Springfield...D'OHHHHHHHHH!

good ole sky
 

whether for or against, u have to admit that sky`s threads are "heavy traffic" lol:)

Living and working overseas is a lot of fun...I miss it.

-LAFF

Overseas People
 

I am sure that you all enjoy your lives overseas and that the food is great and all. What a joy it must be to see other cultures and to read the USA Today in a Starbucks in Dubai. However the majority of people would not accept that as a normal life. I don't know all the details of each country but I am fairly certain that you can't own land there, Grandma and Grandpa are not going to pop in for a barbecue and that you can't go bass fishing in the UAE or Hog Kong. It might look like a real life on the surface but some essential elements are missing. In addition I can't imagine what the future is for those who work overseas other than more overseas work. After a life of luxury and respect in a foreign land how would one accept the grist mill of a pilot job back in the USA? It might have the look and feel of the dream but it is a hollow version without an exit strategy.

Please, if I am way off base please enlighten me. Many times over my career I have examined making the same choice but can't get past some huge objections.


SKyHigh

So Skyhigh, what is a normal life? Are you prepared to define it? What is the average American lifestyle?

Sitting in front of the TV watching Jerry Springer? Shopping every payday at Walmart? Visiting "Grams" and "Gramps" on the 4th of July? Bass fishing every Sunday?

The biggest problem with this country is the elitist and closed minded attitude that Americans have about every other culture/country out there. Mostly it's from the fact that people have never experienced anything different from "the norm", nor do they want to.

Ever been hunting for big game in Turkey or gone diving on the reefs of the Southern Pacific? How about spear fishing in Trinidad or camping in the rain forests of Costa Rica? You might not be fishing for small mouth bass in Hong Kong, but I guarantee you that anywhere you go, you can always find a place to drop a line in the water and pull something good out.

As for other countries and "modern-day" amenities, do you think that only the US has movie theatres, golf courses, ski resorts, shopping malls, car dealerships, theme parks? You can find just about every American activity in any other industrialized nation in the world.

As for owning land in foreign countries, while there are often some restrictions, it almost never bars individuals from purchasing property for private/non-commercial/non-agricultural uses. You might have to pay more money for it or jump through some hoops in the process (sometimes as simple as meeting a local governor or magistrate), but it's possible to do in just about every country that allows US citizens to visit or stay for extended periods of time. (Consider all of the various vacation homes that celebrities have around the world- all it takes is money).

Like I've said before- overseas living isn't for everybody. If you're the type of person that has to watch Oprah and eat McDonalds every other day, then odds are it's not for you. However if you have an open mind and enjoy new cultures and having new experiences, living abroad can be quite exciting and a remarkable experience.

Of course if you're perfectly content fishing the same lake that you always have, tossing back the same big mouth bass that you've been catching each week for the past 22 years, by all means, stick to your little corner of the world. I'm more than happy to send you a post card.

Springfield, WHERE, HeavyDriver???

Rather be in Kuwait or Bishkek, huh?

I'd say most Americans WOULD like to try new experiences (world travel in this context), but are unable to do so for a variety of reasons, mostly finance/job related. How many people have you ever heard say "No, I have no desire to ever visit Paris. Not for me, thanks." I wouldn't ascribe that mindset to anyone I've ever known, from elite businessmen to broke trailer park types. However, there's a huge difference between traveling and living abroad. You don't have to assume those who wouldn't prefer the latter are closed-minded and don't enjoy new experiences. As much as I may have enjoyed living in South Korea and Germany for a total of five years, there was never a time when I didn't ultimately consider the US home.

I've lived overseas for the past 8 1/2 out of 13 years. I never missed the USA or considered it home. I remember once returning from KSA thinking how wonderful it was to be back home in Germany.

I would rather live and work overseas and retire in the USA.

In total I've spent 19 1/2 years of my life overseas. I'm 34 now.


-LAFF

Overseas
 

Some enjoy a disconnected life floating across the globe like a dust bunny. I have no problem with that concept. I am sure that even TP would have to admit that he didn't start out with the plan of having to travel overseas in order to work. Most everyone here had the dream of being a 777 Captain on American soil.

To me it is a polluted version of the dream that really doesnt hit the mark. Giving up life in ones homeland is yet another way to lay an offering on the alter of aviation. We can dress up the idea of life overseas with statements like "enjoying other cultures" and "seeing foreign lands" however it seems to me that giving up ones country is a huge sacrifice. What if you were asked to change your religion in order to work for a certain company or to give up your pets?

In the end what will you come back to? you haven't built equity in anything that is truly lasting and meaningful like home, friends, family, seniority in a viable company and most importantly real estate.

Again I am only trying to understand,

SkyHigh

Skyhigh,

I think you view overseas living much as you view aviation.... the underlying issue isn't that you think that it's impossible to build a stable family atmosphere overseas- it's that you feel that somebody that is "transient" in nature can't have what you have as a stay at home/hometown businessman.

Your arguements always come back to laying down roots and "settling in". IE Building friends, long lasting relationships, real estate ties, etc.

The truth is that each person in this industry does it for whatever personal reasons they see fit. Each has their own goals and aspirations and tolerances. It doens't seem to me like you feel that is possible for you family and your personal situation and that might be perfectly true.

However you also need to realize that many families do THRIVE in such conditions. As a child I lived in 16 different houses by the time that I graduated high school. Does that mean that I had a less stable home atmosphere or fewer friends? Quite the contrary- I now have people that I keep in close contact with around the country and many that live overseas.

The person that I fly with is always kidding me who I know at our overnights. I never fail to amaze him when I whip out my phone and invite a friend or two to join us for dinner. Doesn't matter where, it seems that there's always somebody to call.

I don't feel that I sacrificed for my family/parents when I moved. It was just a way of life... and when I meet people that have stayed in one place their entire lives, I wonder how they can do it without going stir crazy... for me I look forward to change every couple of years... so does my wife and the rest of my family.

There is no right or wrong... only what you're comfortable with and enjoy.

Sky,

there is no answer to your question. josh has it right...read his post a few times...

-laff

The Military Factor
 

>>Pilot shortage<<

I don't believe there will be a shortage of pilots available until the military starts becoming a nicer place to spend 20-30 years. The fact is that military training is near 20 year highs. Between that training and those working up through regional ranks, I see a pilot glut near term (10 years). Toss in an age 65|62 modification to work rules, and it goes from a moderate glut to a constipated lump in the snake. Now, it may well be the GLUT that will lead to the shortage.

The REALLY big elephant in the room is the military pension system. As long as THAT promise is not broken (hmmm), all that will be required is a lack of overseas war deployments for a few more of those pilots to stay put.

Bern

Bern,

I agree, there won't be a shortage of pilots anytime soon, IN THE US. However with continually growing industry in places like India, Asia (Particualrly China and Japan), and the Middle East, there will be plenty of need for pilots that are willing to live/work/travel overseas. I remember seeing an article about 2 months ago that estimated that China alone will triple the size of its commercial aircraft fleet in the next 10 years.

Points
 

I understand both you and Josh's point about living overseas. Some enjoy it and that is great. My point might be lost on you two since you obviously haven't enjoyed a fixed home for very long. Perhaps you will be able to stay put for a while and maybe in 10 years we can have this discussion again.

Aside from living overseas. Wouldn't you say that living where you wish is a basic element to ones happiness? And if one is willing to sell of one part of his life what about the rest?

SkyHigh

China Air
 

Josh,

Get me a job with China Air that comes with a Seattle base and I will gladly eat my words for you.

SKyHigh

Jeez....To each his own.

I'm a boring domestic kinda guy and you wouldn't get me overseas for less than 7 figures, but if YOU wanna go then more power to ya'!

The real point here is that it's sad that our aviation jobs have gotten to the point where anyone would have to do it to secure their future.

There will be a better day stateside, soon I hope.

Hello All,
My son and I lived in Europe for 5 years, I had a Dutch partner who was a KLM pilot, and we had a very nice family.Unfortunately, he was killed in a midair 6 years ago,and I found myself questioning all the choices that I had made in life.My son, who I taught to fly when he was 5, refuses to fly to this day.We stayed in Europe another 4 years,and we are now happily back in the States. Our overseas experience was a poignant one,but one which I wouldnt give up for the world

Kuwait isn't the highlite of our bid choices...lol...(B757200ER knows where I'm coming from)..But I love Bishkek!...I've made a bunch of money with business connections there!...Plus the night life is awsome!..

Wouldn't you say that living where you wish is a basic element to ones happiness? And if one is willing to sell of one part of his life what about the rest?


No. For me a basic part of happiness is knowing my wife and kid are safe and provided for. The other part is knowing i'm doing the job i want to - in my case AF. If I'm stationed in the USA or overseas on a remote or accompanied - I could care less.



-laff

"a floating dust bunny" heh heh heh lmao
 

Hi sky where de hell do u get those kinda remarks from lol:D oh boyo boy, i think you are doing this purposly lol, u just want attention, mayby because i`m a newbee yankee i havn`t got this "land of the free " stuff down yet but i can tell you that every time i go back to Trinidad (GO SOCA WARRIORS) i realise how much i miss it.:) blue sky`s, green mountains, steel band music, carnival, aquamarine sea`s, rum punches at maracas bay. sigh.:)

Scabs?
 

Are you speaking of guys that have crossed picket lines...I'm not aware of any in many moons...

OR, are you talking about guys that are flying for teacher salary wages w/ no union representation and calling them scabs?

Teachers get weekends and holidays off--not to mention 4 mos in the summer.

CargoBob
 

Right on man !!! Who really is the scab these days?

SkyHigh

New category for posters
 

Based on the number of Skyhigh's posts there should be a new category after "gets weekends off" called "has 6 weeks of vacation and drops two trips a month." :p

Skyhigh might come off as negative but he's pretty much on target with his advice. I don't think a lot of people just want to hear it but I've seen what he's talking about.

Take care---Brown Dog

Rather, "Has weekends off- spends them at computer.":D

Nothing has Changed about the definition of a SCAB.

A Scab is one who crosses a picket line to take the strikers job..usually at a much lower wage.

In the pilot profession, there are some who are "independant contractors" who don't tow the Union party line during negiotiations. They continue to give the company 150% by flying Extra, Selling back Vacation while the union is in contentious negotiations.........even when MGT is balking at the table.

These guys can be called many things........One Ways, Flight Wh*r*s, Buddy F##ks.......but they are not SCABS..........unless they cross the Picket line.

So im sitting here as a 19 year old reading all this, WANTING to be a pilot. It sounds like after I get out of the service, if I want to make any money being a pilot, I need to go overseas. I'm just curious as to why that is? Are there no Low cost airlines like Southwest over there, so they all still pay high wages or wat? It sounds like what is going to happen to me, is all the airlines are sooner or later going to be like Southwest (low cost everything). Right now people are loosing there jobs, and taking what they can get at other airlines (jet blue, southwest ect.) When every one is fighting just to HAVE a job, no one is going to be willing to put it on hold and demand for better pay. So ne ways once all the airlines conform to the new way of running things, pilots will all have stable jobs and that is when the unions will finally be able to kick in. If my guess on what is going to happen is correct, i hope it happens in the next 6 years while I am in the service training.

chicken and egg!!
 

lol don`t worry, there will always be obstacles but aviation will also always be here, in the states its just that at this point in time there is plenty "supply" and not enough "demand" here is the type of obstacle you will have to overcome, --you remember the chicken and egg deal--well i got to 60 FAA decrees(notice the pompous type word:D ) no more airline flying for u buddy boy, --grumble mumble, lol anyway toodle on down to Dallas, pay 16,500 for a Learjet 60 type, at the end of which = much hoopla about now you can take command of a LR60 and mosy off into the sunset, --yeah rite--soo put my resume up on a lot of websites and settle in to wait for the tirade of requests for your hero, who by the way has 20,000+ turbo-jet TT well for one month --nada then a few calls that go like this 'I see you have a LR60 type"---yep--"great and how many hours do u have on it"--ahh like O:eek: ---MORAL= U need a job to get the hours, BUT you need the hours to GET the job?????

Yeah im glad that i chose to go to work M-S from 5-9 for 30+ instead. oh wait sometimes i gota get up at 3:30-4 to make my show times.

Fnfal
 

FNFAL

Hey are you the same guy from flightinfo with the cool avatars?

SkyHigh

Hey Sky,

I picked up on a comment you made a little while ago. You would work for China Airlines if you had a Seattle base. If I may offer you a link which suggests that this might be on the way. There is a massive pilot shortage coming but it is 'overseas' from the US.

I wonder what that would be like? I am trying to get on with NCA but to no avail. Not looking forward to the training but I think I would enjoy the work very much. However working for a Chinese would worry me just a little bit.

Supply and demand
 

It seems like this topic keeps coming up, and pilots forget that this is a business, subject to the laws of economics--especially supply and demand.

Yes, it costs a lot to become a pilot at a major--either years of low pay instructing and at a commuter or regional, or giving up several years of your life in the military. Each of us would love to be swamped with money for living through this, but because so many people are willing to do it, the supply of pilots is high. This drives salaries down.

In the early days of the airlines, there were many fewer people capable of being airline pilots. If you think about it, in the 50s the airliner itself had only been around 10-20 years! Now we've had almost a century to "grow pilots," and that has happened--there are lots of folks out there that want to do what we do, and sometimes for peanuts. It's a "buyer's market" for those looking to hire pilots.

Are the "glory days" gone? Depends on your definition of glory days, I guess. I still get to go to work, fly a plane, see the world in a way very few people do, and get paid a decent, if not overwhelming, salary to do so. Could I make more money as a computer geek (my educational background)? Probably. But I also would have tons of paperwork, deadlines, status reports and all of that hassle, too. In aviation, my work is done when the passengers walk down the jetway (or down the steps for some folks). When I go home, work stays at work. My wife likes that (OK, so do I!).

So basically, flying is like EVERY other profession--you ask for the most you can get, and work for what you feel is sufficient. If you don't like the pay in the flying industry, do something else. If you don't KNOW anything else, well then, that was a poor life plan, I'm sorry to say (sometimes the truth hurts, ya know).

For those of you who enjoy the flying life, good on ya. For those who don't, go look for something you DO enjoy--regardless of the pay, life is a lot better when you don't hate what you're doing every day.

Couldnt say it better myself. I am actually leaving my job at merrill lynch working in local currency trading to fly for good. the one thing i learned at my job is learning what i do like and how i should go for that tru passion!

Ignore him (SkyHigh). If we don't respond to him he'll go away. He's getting off on ****n' on our profession. I'm relieved he doesn't fly for a living. We have better people in this industry. He most likely didn't make it past probation. Now he's lurking around taking pot shots at everyone who has succeded where he failed. Sad.

YOU ARE DA MAN!!!!!!!! :D

Overseas
 

I would consider a job flying from SEA to Hawaii or Fiji as with Aloha or Hawaiian Airlines. I have never been interested in spending a lot of time in places where I couldn't speak the local language or crossing all the time zones.

My dream was to fly up and down the west coast in nothing larger or smaller than a 737. :)

SkyHigh

Barry Schiff
 

Everyone should read the Barry Schiff article. I am not alone in my positions by a long shot. It is not negative to have an opposing view nor should anyone be afraid of hearing them.

SkyHigh

:p You may want to ask the NWA pilot who flipped his opinion of that 'high quality of life'...