stratoduck

SATNIP really hit it!

Even ten years ago, it was common to hear mainline pilots proclaiming "I'm not going to fly those little (RJ's) planes!" They gave the loaded gun to management which then proceeded to shoot the pilots in the feet.


Here are some former UAX planes:

9 seat puddle jumping Ford Tri-Motor
18 seat regional prop Boeing 80A
32 set regional prop Douglas DC-3
44 seat regional prop Convair 340
48 seat turbo-prop Vickers Viscount
80 seat regional jet Sud Aviation Caravelle
100 seat regional jet B737-200
102 Seat regional jet B737-500

CE750

The senior (I got mine) mainline pilots, along side with the senior ("I ain't dropping gear for no DL pilot" [sic] regional captain) and the Wharton school airline bean counter/manager have all conspired to ruin this profession, full stop.

eaglefly

Yep........all the other pilots are blameless for standing around with their weenies in their hands and letting it happen.

ESPECIALLY blameless are the unions that failed their fiduciary reponsibility to our profession and have now become self-interested revenue collectors for themselves, a byproduct of that faliure.

Junior mainline pilots are cleared to kick their cats and blame them too, because it's too late and this is just the beginning. If I were one of their cats, I'd just leave now, because in 5 years when there's a hundred or more and reality sinks in, those little furballs will be dodging a lot of shotgun blasts..........in fact, they may even become some of their pilots working for tender vittles.

JetJock16

It doesn't start or end with the regionals, bottom line is if mainline restricts regionals from operating certain a/c then it's irrelevant what we get paid. Plus if we over price ourselves then our futures are short lived (i.e. Comair, AWAC and XJT). Yes their current contracts are still near the top of the regional industry but they are concessionary. And just like at the regionals there are Majors/ Legacy’s that make more than others.

Also the thought of scoping ourselves to small a/c is ridiculous. If SKW’s pilot’s restrict Mgmnt to 50 seats than we’ll stagnate or shrink while ASA grows and if ASA joins SKW in scoping themselves then Comair, Mesaba, Freedom, Shuttle or Pinnacle will grow. No the buck stop at the source and only at the source. If DAL, UAL, CAL, US or AA scopes at 50 seats then every regional that operates for them must abide by the scope language. Don’t blame the regional industry for Mainline’s MEC short sightedness.

rickair7777

This is the reality at the regional level.

Since we can be easily and quickly disposed of and replaced by another regional, we cannot ask for "industry leading" compensation, only "industry ballpark". A major pilot group can obtain higher compensation, and it will not shut down their airline in the short-term, and other groups can then follow suit.

We cannot scope ourselves to a max aircraft size. Remember, regional pilots consist of two camps...lifers and upwardly-mobile. The upwardly-mobile crowd want most of the same things that major pilots want, but they obviously don't want their regional to lose all of it's flying and liquidate. The lifers want anything they can get...if you let them they will fly widebodies for a a 15% overide on 50-seat rates

Ultimately, regionals will fill any power vacuum left by major pilot groups...there are enough lifers and 300-hour 90-day wonders out there to ensure that. Whining about the reality is a waste of time. All a regional pilot can reasonably do is not work at a bottom-feeder (or conduct militant labor actions at his bottom-feeder).

Got Scope? Senior widebody CA's don't care about scope, but all the other mainline guys had better have that as your #1 priority...everything else is just deck chairs on the Titanic.

And it's not just a problem at YOUR major airline...as soon as one large major outsources narrowbodies, everyone else is eventually doomed too. Hopefully Midwest does not succeed with this.

FlyingViking

So sad, yet so very true... Just like the rest of corporate America.

flyover

I just emailed my Delta Alpa Rep about this issue. I hope everyone else does the same at every level. I am near the bottom of 12000 so I am directly effected by Scope. Call or email your rep immediately! Just do it!

eaglefly

Yikes !!!!!

The bottom of a 12000 pilot mainline pilot group ?

Man, I feel for you brutha.

The way this industry will inevitable go, I'd be sleeping very poorly if I was in that situation. Make as much dough as you can for as long as you can, hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

It's the "Major Pilots" vs. the "Executives and Bean Counters" and you are in the middle of the 3rd period with the EBC leading 6-1. The EBC has a decent powerplay going to boot. The regional pilots are in the stands with some cheering for each team depending upon their philosophy and swilling all the beer and chomping all dogs they can get.

Man........it's a HELL of a game folks, so keep watching.

Sniper

It's easy to blame: it's mainline's fault, it's regionals fault, it's the MEC's fault, it's ALPA national's fault . . . anyone else?

What are you going to DO about it though?

- Mainline: The current way of doing this is not working, trading scope for 'gains' in other areas (gains being a relative term, b/c you're still not where you used to be, and your 'gains' don't keep up with inflation). Think of a 'regional' as any another airline. Republic has the right to fly 190's (and 777's), just as you do. If Delta was considering contracting American pilots to fly Delta routes, would it be a serious problem? Well, what do you think Delta is doing with Skywest and Air France? Call it a 'code share', call it 'Delta Connection', it's still the same thing - those are Delta customers flying on aircraft not flown by Delta pilots. Not to say it's not a good business decision to expand your route network, allowing Delta to be more attractive to customers, but to continue to allow your passengers to be flown by another carrier is past the law of diminishing returns - further 'contracting' or 'code sharing' is hurting your own pilot group more than it is helping your pilot group by capturing additional passengers for your company. Just b/c the plane says 'Delta' on the side and you're wearing a double breasted jacket doesn't make it YOUR flying. Only your pilot group's contract does that.

- Regional: Stop blaming 'mainline' for your perceived problems. You are a pilot group, just as they are. Why do many of you want to change pilot groups, to start over @ the bottom of a list? Likely, the pay and benefits of the 'mainline' carrier (or 'cargo' carrier or 'fractional' carrier - as long as you just slide in on someone else's coattails and effort, it's all the same). Well, why doesn't YOUR pilot group have those? Your group won't negotiate them, that's why. You have just as much right to fly 777's as any other group Flying for a well known brand does not entitle pilots to higher pay and better benefits, only their contract does this, just as their scope is the only thing that ensures their flying is 'theirs' and not yours. The excuse 'If we get higher payrates, we'll lose our contract, and therefore our jobs' is an act in absconding responsibility. If American negotiates higher payrates, their company must pass on those costs to the customer. If the consumer refuses to pay them - bye-bye American Airlines, including the job as 'American Airlines pilot'. This is not a uniquely regional problem. If you want the higher pay and benefits of the current 'mainline', there are two ways to go about getting it:

• be one of the dwindling # hired @ mainline, and protect and enhance what's still there, the same way you helped to ensure that you protected and enhanced what you had while you were a regional pilot
• realize that mainline pilots are no more deserving of pay and benefits than regional pilots are, and make every effort to make your current employer a place to stay, rather than a stepping stone.

What won't work is undercutting your fellow regional and mainline pilots, then feeling sorry for yourself when your own efforts ensure that the career progression you counted on evaporate before your eyes. You have to make the best of what you've got now, regardless. Asking mainline to do the work while you actively undermine their efforts will never work.

--
We're all pilots and we all must take responsibility for our actions. Giving up scope to protect your pay is no more valid an excuse that undercutting every other pilot group to protect your job security. All of us must be responsible for our own scope protections and the impact that raising the costs of our contract has on our job security. There is no issues that regionals face that mainline pilots don't, or vice versa. There is no 'regional' and 'mainline'; each time we divide ourselves up, we make it easier to whipsaw one group against the other. In short, we're all in this together, and we need to start acting like it.

johnso29

With the amount of retirements scheduled at DAL between 2010-2033 he has very little to worry about. Even the most junior pilot is scheduled to be out of the bottom 10% by around 2017 & the retirements only pile on from there. That's based on Age 65 so they will most likely occur even more quickly due to med outs, early outs, etc.