Airline Pilot Central Forums - Phase 3 Implementation DL

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosmo King (Post 639600)

One of these days you will be flying over a molehill that turns into a mountain. Beware of CFIT and beware of an MEC that makes agreements without letting the voting reps see the contract language prior to signing.

Nosmo King

I agree with your general tenent.

But to use your own analogy, you are worrying about being a few feet off MDA when the problem really is that we are off course by 90 degrees.

Off course 90 degrees is SCOPE of course ;-)

Cheers
George

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 639701)

I agree, A lot of the posters better hope they never have to go to work in the real world. What a shock they are in for! The guy next door to me has been working all Holiday weekend from home. He works most of every Saturday from home and part of some Sundays. If he did not he would be asked to find another job. If your working a 6 figure job your asked to work way beyond normal hours in the real world. If you choose not to you soon find yourself on the street or in a dead end career track.

While you are correct... you seemed to miss a key part of your statement. "The guy next door to me has been working all Holiday weekend from home." I have been working all holiday weekend in Sao Paulo... on a 79 hour layover. (The upside is that I have finished most of my recurrent.) :D All that whining aside, since we do all of our training on our own time.. it really would be nice to be paid the entire amount of MY time that I spend on training.. not just the 1 for 3 or whatever it is.

This training is in compliance with the PWA. I guess you could say the same thing about the training you do every year. I do it on my overnights, but one way or another it is my time, and the company is compensating me according to the PWA.
Same is true here.
Do you get paid fora French Visa, a yellow fever shot, a FAA medical, renewal of you SIDA badge, or your Jep revisions? Nope, it is just part of the job. It is your responsibility as a professional to make sure these are current for your next fight. Much like this easy non jeopardy 20 minute power point. They will probably give you 12 minutes of pay for it too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosmo King (Post 639719)

Are you working two careers? Pilots are not working as salaried management in real world corporations, we are working in a career that is still partially regulated by the US Government and US Labor Laws.

Are you under a different CONTRACT then the rest of the pilots? The contract is there for a reason, it is supposed to set limits on management and limits on the pilots. We are NOT salaried employees, we ARE contract workers covered by the Railway Labor Act.

Most executive employees in the outside world are not regulated by the government. Most salaried execs do not have the same protections and limitations, thats why their jobs can be more portable to other companies.
Pilots by virtue of seniority based contracts have largely traded portability for fleeting job security. Perhaps not the best trade off but thats what we have negotiated.

If you approve of DL management applying the outside world "rules" to us, then all the pilots at DAL are in big trouble. We should let them pay us an annual salary and fly us to FAR limits. We should let them remove all scope protection and rigs. As much as we like to think we are executives, we are covered under a LABOR contract. We are a LABOR union. We are covered under LABOR laws. We are not salaried management employees under individual contract.

There are at times special cases that need to be handled outside the contract, but rarely for the pilot group as a whole. I expect us to take advantage of the good parts of our contract, management will take advantage of the parts that were poorly negotiated.

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

The training you are whining about is allowed by the contract. In the time you have spent here whining you could have done it two or 3 times. When you go to work sign in. Go to the Video, watch it and get paid a little extra for that trip and you don't have to give up a minute of your own time. Or watch it on a sit and again get paid extra. Delta has a airline to run and airlines to merge. It requires training. Some people want their company to succeed. Others for unknown reasons want to drive the company to failure. Kind of reminds me of the bitter ex wife who found a way to get her husband fired from his job. Made her feel great until the child support and alimoney checks stopped arriving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 639739)

Thank you for answering my original question that began this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 639739)

Do you get paid fora French Visa, a yellow fever shot, a FAA medical, renewal of you SIDA badge, or your Jep revisions? Nope, it is just part of the job. It is your responsibility as a professional to make sure these are current for your next fight. Much like this easy non jeopardy 20 minute power point. They will probably give you 12 minutes of pay for it too!

NW paid for the French Visa and China Visa, all we did was drop it off with a CP. They also reimbursed for passport renewal. Those days are now gone post merger. I believe NW was the last airline to pay for visas and passport renewal.

Reimbursed for immunizations, but they were not required to remain on flight status.

FAA Medical is reimbursed by DL, also covered in the contract.

SIDA badge - not required to have one

Jepp Revisions - NW policy allows this to be done while airborne, but there are certain time parameters in effect after issue date.

20 minutes now, 240 minutes next time, 480 minutes time after that?

Since you know the DL contract and I don't, I tend to ask questions in here and read the PWA while enroute. I haven't read the section on distance learning yet, but I will on my next trip since it has ow popped up on my radar.

So is it legal under the PWA for them to give you distance learning of say 3 days at 8 hours a day totalling 24 hours of runtime? Can they then say its available starting Dec 25 and must be complete by 31 Dec? What are the time completion and course length limitations for assignment of dist learning? Background - Distance Learning at NW was shutdown due to a pay vs. run time dispute.

The trend I am seeing here is that ex-NW had to deal with management that would cancel your vacations (fixed in last contract) and find all the holes they could in the contract to use against pilots, so we learned to defend our contract tooth and nail (ask your FedEx buddies about holes in the contract). Ex-DL haven't had to deal with that ... YET. Maybe you will understand being anal about contract enforcement and contract language after they screw you a few times. A few of the major culprits are still here post-merger in key positions. I hope you don't have to experience their contract "interpretations" the way we did at NW.

Delta pays for all required Visa's. I have held a French Visa for 20 years and they have never allowed them to be issued other then in person. He is referring to the time involved to get those Visa's not the cost. Takes almost a day to get the French Visa with the travel involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 639886)

I spent about one minute at the end of a trip dropping off my passport at the CPs office so the staff could get my French Visa for me (or any crewmember that needed a visa). Those that had never flown international dropped off their passports with the training staff during initial qual and they magically reappeared about a week later with French Visas. Personal time spent - zero. We didn't have to do any travel to get a French Visa. NW paid for a courier/walk through service and for expediting at the Chicago Embassy.

That will change now with the new biometric requirements for French (and soon China) visas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 639666)

So you would rather have them tell you when to do it rather then do it at your leisure. I would prefer to do it when I want to get it done. Just for info I don't know many pilots who have used their own time. When you sign in for your next trip do it right then on their time and get extra pay. Its just not that hard!!!

Yes I would rather have it put on my schedule, but that's just me...... When I come in for a trip I sign in and go do a briefing and then fly, I don't hang around at the airport. I am not saying it is "that hard" but rather I would like time allocated that is not on my off time or vacation. I am scheduled to be off from when the material is available until well in Aug, I just don't like being told I have to do something for work while on vacation. It'll get done it always does but I don't have to like the way it is being implemented.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 639701)

Sorry dude I have worked in the real world..... I paid for my college and certificates by roughnecking, so I understand hard work and what it takes to make it! I also have owned a profitable small business (did this right after BK) and I worked 7 days a week and put in about 12 hours a day when not flying plus worked during off time on trips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosmo King (Post 639878)

Jepp Revisions - NW policy allows this to be done while airborne, but there are certain time parameters in effect after issue date.

.

Where exactly is this policy, because I have never read it in the FOM?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1234 (Post 639971)

Where exactly is this policy, because I have never read it in the FOM?

The FOM page 1.5.6, under currency of revisions.