Seniority deal? Here's how it SHOULD go down. Staple the LCC boys BELOW the AA furloughees.

Interesting perspective... Thanks.. Our CEOs have all been home grown here at AA (for better or worse) Not sure they would allow just anyone to walk in to that spot. Arpey is still young, and making a lot of money of us. No reason to leave.

AA

P.S Thats gotta suck, to put out, and no one wants it:D

Unless it is just parts.

...and most of us fail to consider "parts" because we cringe at the implications for any one pilot group. Since we're stuck without a NSL, and thus married to our individual airlines, our most important wish is for our group to stay intact. We often can't get our minds around the concept that this is a giant monopoly game potentially getting underway. And the traders aren't interested in trading places with each other: they want to trade properties. What's the point of everyone holding incomplete sets, when everyone could be putting up hotels over fewer, neatly organized properties?

When you don't think like a pilot, even a AMR/LCC mrger can in fact make sense, especially when you think about three-way deals that get all the pieces in the right hands. For isntance, plug in Delta into your calculations. LCC just traded with us in a way that helps them in DCA, and makes them small enough in LGA to pass regulatory review in LGA in case of a merger with AMR.

Now look at New York. AMR isn't exactly growing, but CAL/DAL/JBLU are setting up strong positions. DAL has a well-known terminal problem in JFK. Some rumors even exist that we are in discussions for AMR's terminal. Some scoff at this, of course, but the rumor also has AMR getting our new terminal in BOS. That, to me, seems a lot more plausible: everyone sets up more dominant positions in different turfs. AMR strengthens its' hand in BOS, LGA, and PHL. In my mind, the PHL market is begging to get some adult supervision, and SWA won't provide the international lift. I don't see why AMR couldn't serve the JFK TATL traffic with a BA codeshare, and have a decent domestic/int'l hub at PHL, to replace the mess that exists there right now.

My point isn't that I know the answers, but simply that we need to be more original in our thinking. Something has to give in this industry. Judging by the terminal swap at LGA, and by the AAI/CAL swap at EWR and LGA, something significant is happening. Airlines are now deciding to look at ways of setting up dominant positions in certain markets, in return for strengthening a competitor elsewhere.

So I think it's very naive to think Arpey and Parker are simply looking at existing networks, and wondering if they will fit, or if labor will play along: they're going to axe, cut, grind, trade, swap, haggle, deal, or whatever it takes to get the right properties in the right hands. I doubt fleet commonality keeps them up at night, and I doubt even pieces like PHX are too difficult to trade in a three-way deal. Take SWA, for example... maybe they could pull out of CLT and BOS, and reduce a little in PHL, in order to meet the increased PHX schedule when AMR/LCC pulls down their flying, to shift it more towards, you know, CLT, BOS, and PHL...

The good news: it probably will take the same number of pilots. I don't see the system shrinking much further, and you can't defer retirements forever.

A very well thought out response. I agree.

Crap! If that were to be the case, I will never be able to get over to mainline!

I think the Reno Air and America West pilots should all gravitate to the top of a combined seniority list after the SH!T they have been put through...

No doubt Parker is attracted to the possibility of relocating to Dallas Ft.Worth. Great bars and line dancing there for him...

is dui even illegal in TX? Heads up when the Drunkie Porker is in town boys, even the armadillos are hiding.

Well what should be done with the US East furloughees who have been through 2 furloughs and have been held hostage ever since they started at LCC in 1989. Some have as much as 12 years on the street and have had nothing but **** tossed at them. Now the AmWest people want to toss them under a bus AGAIN. A third time. And this time they take furloughs for people hired in 2004.

If something came down with this, all that are currently furloughed would be on 1 list and all active on another. Effectively, integrating 2 lists while creating 2 lists...and for the furloughs, all below the actives.

After that long, do they even have recall rights ?

People are already talking about how to merge the lists should an AA deal come and it still is in the "educated rumor" stage. My guess is if it did and AMR has learned anything of the past, they'd just cherry pick some assets and pass on the employees. Even sending the USAPA a greetings card would be stupid IMO.

Parker's ready to roll over on just about anything, AMR can call the shots and Parker would sell out employees in a New York minute to carve a deal for himself and avoid a legacy as somone who ran an airline into the terrain.

AA's got enough furloughees as it is and as we all know virtually all mergers result in fewer jobs, so I don't think most at U would have anywhere to go anyway. AMR knows it's not in the benevolent job saving business, but the 'make the most money for the least spent' business. I'd bet the U furloughees could add another decade waiting as AA likley wont be hiring soon without a merger, let alone with one.

I think a much more likely scenario would be US Air + RAH. Fleet commonality(airbus, E190), route structure, seniority integration wouldnt be any worse than what RAH already has to deal with. Maybe give Parker the CEO spot and make Bedford Chief of Pencils and Paper Clips.

Well usapa has the solution for that, furlough the west guys that had jobs and worked for a growing airline that had 0 furloughs and then give doh to the east furloughs with 12 years on the street so they can be captains on the west side.

..........and if no deal, then SUE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a pilot for another legacy, I am tired of reading America West pilots' slander. I have always looked at US Airways as a superior airline to work for over America West. America West was a second tier airline. US Airways paid a lot better than America West until post 2001. The award is not right. I know you guys like to think it is because a third party decided, but that does not make it right. I as well as other pilots are tired of reading about it.

The **** Reno Air was put through... Better have something to back that up with.

Reno came into existence around the time AA furloughed. They ended up going on the list December 1998. Behind a handful of new hires that were hired starting in the spring of 1998. If they had been given DOH, it would have put them in after the 93 hires and before the few hundred hired in 1998.

They sit now as fairly senior wide-body 767 FO positions, 777 FO positions as well. They complained that they were not given their seats, in other words feathered into a seniority list above their actual hire dates at Reno.

At the time a 12 year 727 FE made more than their MD-80 Captains on an hourly basis..

Please spare me they were screwed crap. I know 2 of them personally that had their apps in with AA when this went down. They are both pretty happy, at least they were till this place went to where it is now.

AA

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a judge declare some of USAPA's actions illegal ?

That would hardly be in accordance with the actions of a group of respectable aviators. Whether the award was fair isn't the issue, but it was a process that the U pilots agreed to and is binding, yet apparently the belief is that anything goes with them. It is for that reason IMO, that any and all carriers should steer clear of any involvement with this group. Perhaps, that is one of Parkers objectives - to rid himself of this albatross, so he MAY have a chance at saving this carrier.

He could be talking to AMR about an East asset aquisition and mold a situation allowing him to relinquish most, if not all of the East and rebuild a cohesive West carrier.............that's what I'd be doing. Keeping these to carriers seperate in perpituity is a virtual guarantee of collapse of the whole outfit, so maybe this is the last resort.

What if he were to sell the most important 25% of U (which is probably all that is now worth anything) and keep the senior pilots flying it until they retire ?

It's my understanding that the top 500 or so have only got 5 or so years left. Then flush the rest and have the remaining U reclaim some of it's former routes over time. I don't know, but I'm thinking Parker HAS to do something with this situaton or preside over the companies death.

Being held hostage by a group of intransigent crybabies is no way to run a carrier whether they are right or wrong. At any rate, we're kinda getting off topic, so this issue can be rikindled if necessary on any numner of already existing threads on the subject..

Yea, 272 "Super" 80's - the buyers would be lined up for those.

Maybe Parkers' nosing around for $800 million in AMR assets so you can make the debt payment?

First of all, you're waaaaay ahead of yourself here. AA can't just buy the airways certificate and suddenly operate using it. It doesn't work that way. They would have to operate LCC & AA as 2 airlines until a Single Operating Certificate was obtained(1.5 years MINIMUM)

Second, I don't see AA burning cash just to buy LCC. I suspect the only way it would happen is to do a deal like the NWA/DAL merger, a stock swap. Then, there is the mess of overlap, fleet differences, and DOJ Approval.(Thus could be the nail in the coffin)


By this logic you're still wrong because DAL had an operational profit last qtr.

I've only been around this industry since 1987, so I can't say anything about earlier times, but USAir's been second tier all that time. In fact, two of my friends at Delta were in new-hire class at USAir in 1987...and walked out.

I feel bad for the screw job the AmWest guys are getting at the hands of USAPA. I dont know a lot of America West guys, but the ones I do know came from failed legacy carriers, and it gauls me to hear them referred to as inexperienced noobs.

Don't know what your criteria was for second tier airline back in 87, but I do know this, the contract that USAir worked under in the early 80s after the PSA/Peidmont mergers was pretty damn good. They had duty rigs that made Delta's pale in comparison. 86/87 were the big years for B scale, thanks be to the AA guys and Crandal. Everyone seemed to follow afterwards. USAir became USair, I think around 78-9 (re. Alleganey -5sp) timeframe and it was pretty good, not unlike Ozark, Piedmont, PSA, Republic, Hughes Air West, Southern and other names lost in the past. Very good niche players in their own rights. But then again, the job anywhere then was probably better than most places today. Thanks Alfred Kahn, Ted K. and J. Carter. 30 plus years later and their dream of travel for the masses at bus prices has come to pass. And we get to reap the "rewards".

A growing airline? Ok now your LAS based is about closed, your PHX base is bleeding money. You have 180 pilots on furlough. You have what you brought to the merger, nothing.

It has been four years since the merger and there are still separate operations. Why? Because it is a legal transition agreement. Separate ops until a combined contract.

Jamie Baker has been wrong more often than right. The only people that have a worse batting average than him and get to keep their jobs are TV weatherpeople.

It also must be noted that their analystic wind shifts frequently and rapidly. By February, they could be predicting imminent liquidation for UAL or U. Their beliefs are predicated on a crystal ball that reads about 2 months in the past and not 6 months in the future.

I have a relative that was at Reno. He is quite happy with the integration. Got a big pay bump. Move back to his home town. It was all good the first few yrs until 9/11. Never been the same sense. I think that goes for everybody. Not withstanding he still a fairly senior 767 Fo. Good sked.

Our casm went from 7 cents to 13 cents overnite because of the east anchor, and like everyone else that has ever dealt with that scumbag operation managements answer is to retreat back east, psa anyone?

If there is ever a day to lose the acrimony and name calling, this is it. It's 9/11 gentlemen and it is by the grace of God that we were not flying one of those aircraft 8 years ago. Any one of us could have been working for United, American or even US Air. No matter what uniform you wear today, let's respect every pilot and their airline. Please.

Outstanding! Thank you.

AA

Prior to the aquisition America West was growing. We had Airbus 320 family orders coming for the next 4 years and we had firm orders for the A 350 which were America West orders. Growth in PHX has been stalled with an infatuation with PHL, which is fine but realize that the America West of 4 years ago and the West operation today are two different animals. Since there is no breakdown in operations results from the East and West I do not know how you can possibly say the the West is bleeding money. We do know that Kirby and Parker said that LGA was losng money, that is why the gate swap for DCA was done. You may be thinking of initial 10K statemets after the merger, realize that America West Holdings (the West) absorbed all merger expenses, none were charged to US Airways at that time. That resulted in the America West portion of the combined airline showing a loss. AWA had some of the lowest costs in the industry before the merger, that is why we made money competing with SWA. Now we are a bloated, inefficient carrier with our principla hub based in the Mogadishu of the United States

You seem bent on denigrating the accomplishments of America West before the merger. You are free to say what you want but realize that we will correct your factual errors. You can live in your dreamworld and I do hope you are happy there. Know that we out West have always enjoyed our jobs and we have always had pride in ourselves and our ability to overcome adversity. We always said we were one CEO and one contact away from being a great place to work. I guess we are still looking for that to happen and that is why we would welcome a merger to get us out from this disaster of an operation. This management is going down the same failed road that US Air has travelled before, placing an emphasis on the yields out East without controling the exorbient costs that are incurred with that type of operation. The days of .30 cents a seat mile yields like Piedmont had are gone forever.

The east pilots are as anti american values as it gets, in fact they act and use terrorist tactics on the west, economic terrorists.

Continued flamebait and bashing. Thread closed.