Should we learn from pilot protests in EU?
#11
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Joined: Nov 2006
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I was one of ten board members sitting on the committee that approved the resolution that ultimately went before the entire ALPA Executive Board.
John Prater never once twisted my arm for a pro age 65 vote. He, nor anyone else, made any attempt to influence the committee.
My roll call vote was insignificant in general assembly, and I must admit that it is possible that Prater politic'd long and hard for changing ALPA's stand, but the vote would never have gone to the floor if my delegate committee had not made a positive recommendation and I will again assure you that John Prater made no attempt to get the ten of us to vote either way.
BTW, we decided to remove our support for age 60 simply because we
looked at the evidence and decided that the FAA administrator (and Presidential administration) had already made up her mind to change the rule. The only way to have any influence on the final language was to end our oppostion and send our lobbyists in to work for us.
The APAAD and associated groups were going for RETROactive re-instatement of over age 60 pilots. How would you have liked that?
John Prater never once twisted my arm for a pro age 65 vote. He, nor anyone else, made any attempt to influence the committee.
My roll call vote was insignificant in general assembly, and I must admit that it is possible that Prater politic'd long and hard for changing ALPA's stand, but the vote would never have gone to the floor if my delegate committee had not made a positive recommendation and I will again assure you that John Prater made no attempt to get the ten of us to vote either way.
BTW, we decided to remove our support for age 60 simply because we
looked at the evidence and decided that the FAA administrator (and Presidential administration) had already made up her mind to change the rule. The only way to have any influence on the final language was to end our oppostion and send our lobbyists in to work for us.
The APAAD and associated groups were going for RETROactive re-instatement of over age 60 pilots. How would you have liked that?
skybolt vbmenu_register("postmenu_31566", true);
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 234
It is my understanding that CAL offers COBRA to it's newhires. How much does that COBRA costper month, for a family of five?
I can find a way to work for first year pay, but not if I have to pay COBRA at the rates my current employer charges for a family.
Thanks in advance,
Skybolt
#12
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 259
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Skybolt,
It sounds like your buddy Prater got you a job after you sold your soul to ALPA.
Do you like Continental Airlines? Was it more satisfying to get a job on your own, or was it better to have the elmer fudd look alike help you?
It sounds like your buddy Prater got you a job after you sold your soul to ALPA.
Do you like Continental Airlines? Was it more satisfying to get a job on your own, or was it better to have the elmer fudd look alike help you?
#13
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,228
Likes: 62
From: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Italy... when one group in the transport union goes on strike... all sections of the trasnport group local to the area go on strike.
Same in Spain.
France... well can you say "Wild Cat Strike"? On evening, we sat on the gound in Spain in the Spring of 2008 for two hours waiting to fly to the UK.
Will it work in the US? Not a prayer. When one airline goes on strike... the vultures from the other carriers circle the future carcus just waiting for the pickings.
When it comes to unity amongst pilots??? the US is at the bottom of the barrel on that subject.
The only group, in recent years that actually had the balls to stand up to management were the Amerijet Pilots.
Same in Spain.
France... well can you say "Wild Cat Strike"? On evening, we sat on the gound in Spain in the Spring of 2008 for two hours waiting to fly to the UK.
Will it work in the US? Not a prayer. When one airline goes on strike... the vultures from the other carriers circle the future carcus just waiting for the pickings.
When it comes to unity amongst pilots??? the US is at the bottom of the barrel on that subject.
The only group, in recent years that actually had the balls to stand up to management were the Amerijet Pilots.
#14
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,880
Likes: 194
Italy... when one group in the transport union goes on strike... all sections of the trasnport group local to the area go on strike.
Same in Spain.
France... well can you say "Wild Cat Strike"? On evening, we sat on the gound in Spain in the Spring of 2008 for two hours waiting to fly to the UK.
Will it work in the US? Not a prayer. When one airline goes on strike... the vultures from the other carriers circle the future carcus just waiting for the pickings.
When it comes to unity amongst pilots??? the US is at the bottom of the barrel on that subject.
The only group, in recent years that actually had the balls to stand up to management were the Amerijet Pilots.
Same in Spain.
France... well can you say "Wild Cat Strike"? On evening, we sat on the gound in Spain in the Spring of 2008 for two hours waiting to fly to the UK.
Will it work in the US? Not a prayer. When one airline goes on strike... the vultures from the other carriers circle the future carcus just waiting for the pickings.
When it comes to unity amongst pilots??? the US is at the bottom of the barrel on that subject.
The only group, in recent years that actually had the balls to stand up to management were the Amerijet Pilots.
Your should have added a few other parts to your statement above. You could have said in these countries when a group goes on strike other groups can legally go on strike also. In the US it is illegal to take such job actions. Its a huge distinction. I am constantly amazed at how many pilots have never read the Railway Labor Act and can be so unimformed when it comes to the right to strike for any activity that falls under the RLA.
#16
Too Tired to Fly: European Pilots Want Shorter Shifts - Yahoo! News
Too Tired to Fly: European Pilots Want Shorter Shifts
By LEO CENDROWICZ / BRUSSELS – 36 mins ago
Most of us have endured days at work when a combination of long hours and little sleep tests our ability to stay awake. Usually, the worst thing that happens is you snooze on your keyboard for a bit and are woken up by your boss. For airline pilots, however, the consequences of falling asleep on the job are far more serious. Pilot fatigue can, and does, cost lives. It is thought to be the main reason a commuter plane crashed near Buffalo, N.Y., earlier this year, killing all 49 people on board and one person on the ground.
Why, then, would the European Union allow pilots and cabin crews to work up to 14 hours straight? For unions representing pilots and flight attendants, the E.U.'s failure to lower working hours in line with scientific advice is inviting tragedy. "Do we need to wait for another accident?" says Captain Martin Chalk, president of the European Cockpit Association (ECA), which represents 38,200 pilots. To protest what they see as a dangerous gamble with passengers' lives, thousands of pilots and flight attendants on Monday handed out 100,000 dummy tickets to passengers at airports across Europe, each containing fake departure and arrival points like "Awake City" and "Sleeping Island" and warnings about the risks that passengers face when pilots and cabin crew members are fatigued. (See pictures of the Buffalo crash.)
Chalk, who flies Boeing 747s, says pilot fatigue is behind 15% to 20% of all fatal aircraft accidents, but he admits it is impossible to be precise. "Although the effects of fatigue are as damaging as the effects of alcohol, there is as yet no test to determine the level of fatigue in a human, in the way there is for alcohol and drugs," he says. However, research conducted by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration shows the risk of flying accidents to be 1.7 times greater when flight crew shifts are between 10 and 12 hours and 5.5 times greater for shifts of 13 hours or more. And a recent survey of more than 1,400 flight crew members by the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration revealed that 80% of them admitted to "nodding off" during a flight.
Monday's protest comes a year after the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), the E.U.'s air-safety advisory board, issued a scientific study, known as the Moebus Report, warning of the dangers of the E.U.'s new rules on flying hours. The regulations, introduced in July 2008, stipulate that pilots work up to a maximum of 14 hours during the day and nearly 12 hours at night. The Moebus Report recommends that the maximum lengths of shifts be lowered to 13 hours during the day and 10 hours at night. It also says that the current maximum of 180 accumulated flying hours in 21 days is too much and calls for a limit of 100 hours over 14 consecutive days. (Read "Air Traffic Control: Be Careful Out There.")
But the Association of European Airlines (AEA), a lobbying group that represents 33 of the top airlines in Europe, believes the report was based on "flawed science with recommendations which have no safety justification." It estimates that changing the regulations would cost airlines nearly $1.5 billion in extra costs per year. Although the airline industry has been hit hard by the global financial crisis, ECA secretary general Philip von SchÖppenthau says the airlines shouldn't be ignoring safety concerns in order to save money. "Yes, stricter fatigue rules - as recommended by the scientists - might cost money. But safety always has a price," he says. He points out that after the Buffalo disaster, U.S. authorities moved swiftly to overhaul U.S. flying-time regulations, and the FAA is due to propose new rules by the end of the year. (Read "Surviving Crashes: How Airlines Prepare for the Worst.")
Right now, each European country can set flying-time standards that differ from the new E.U. rules. In Britain, for example, pilots are forbidden from flying more than 900 hours over the course of a year in order to prevent fatigue. But in 2012, the E.U. regulations will come into force for all member states. EASA says the Moebus Report will form the basis of negotiations between the unions and airlines as it decides what the minimum and maximum shift times should be. But no decision is expected for some time.
For pilots, however, the issue is already pressing. With so much at stake, they felt that handing out dummy tickets to passengers at terminals on Monday would be a relatively mild disruption to travelers - one they could probably deal with.
Too Tired to Fly: European Pilots Want Shorter Shifts
By LEO CENDROWICZ / BRUSSELS – 36 mins ago
Most of us have endured days at work when a combination of long hours and little sleep tests our ability to stay awake. Usually, the worst thing that happens is you snooze on your keyboard for a bit and are woken up by your boss. For airline pilots, however, the consequences of falling asleep on the job are far more serious. Pilot fatigue can, and does, cost lives. It is thought to be the main reason a commuter plane crashed near Buffalo, N.Y., earlier this year, killing all 49 people on board and one person on the ground.
Why, then, would the European Union allow pilots and cabin crews to work up to 14 hours straight? For unions representing pilots and flight attendants, the E.U.'s failure to lower working hours in line with scientific advice is inviting tragedy. "Do we need to wait for another accident?" says Captain Martin Chalk, president of the European Cockpit Association (ECA), which represents 38,200 pilots. To protest what they see as a dangerous gamble with passengers' lives, thousands of pilots and flight attendants on Monday handed out 100,000 dummy tickets to passengers at airports across Europe, each containing fake departure and arrival points like "Awake City" and "Sleeping Island" and warnings about the risks that passengers face when pilots and cabin crew members are fatigued. (See pictures of the Buffalo crash.)
Chalk, who flies Boeing 747s, says pilot fatigue is behind 15% to 20% of all fatal aircraft accidents, but he admits it is impossible to be precise. "Although the effects of fatigue are as damaging as the effects of alcohol, there is as yet no test to determine the level of fatigue in a human, in the way there is for alcohol and drugs," he says. However, research conducted by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration shows the risk of flying accidents to be 1.7 times greater when flight crew shifts are between 10 and 12 hours and 5.5 times greater for shifts of 13 hours or more. And a recent survey of more than 1,400 flight crew members by the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration revealed that 80% of them admitted to "nodding off" during a flight.
Monday's protest comes a year after the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), the E.U.'s air-safety advisory board, issued a scientific study, known as the Moebus Report, warning of the dangers of the E.U.'s new rules on flying hours. The regulations, introduced in July 2008, stipulate that pilots work up to a maximum of 14 hours during the day and nearly 12 hours at night. The Moebus Report recommends that the maximum lengths of shifts be lowered to 13 hours during the day and 10 hours at night. It also says that the current maximum of 180 accumulated flying hours in 21 days is too much and calls for a limit of 100 hours over 14 consecutive days. (Read "Air Traffic Control: Be Careful Out There.")
But the Association of European Airlines (AEA), a lobbying group that represents 33 of the top airlines in Europe, believes the report was based on "flawed science with recommendations which have no safety justification." It estimates that changing the regulations would cost airlines nearly $1.5 billion in extra costs per year. Although the airline industry has been hit hard by the global financial crisis, ECA secretary general Philip von SchÖppenthau says the airlines shouldn't be ignoring safety concerns in order to save money. "Yes, stricter fatigue rules - as recommended by the scientists - might cost money. But safety always has a price," he says. He points out that after the Buffalo disaster, U.S. authorities moved swiftly to overhaul U.S. flying-time regulations, and the FAA is due to propose new rules by the end of the year. (Read "Surviving Crashes: How Airlines Prepare for the Worst.")
Right now, each European country can set flying-time standards that differ from the new E.U. rules. In Britain, for example, pilots are forbidden from flying more than 900 hours over the course of a year in order to prevent fatigue. But in 2012, the E.U. regulations will come into force for all member states. EASA says the Moebus Report will form the basis of negotiations between the unions and airlines as it decides what the minimum and maximum shift times should be. But no decision is expected for some time.
For pilots, however, the issue is already pressing. With so much at stake, they felt that handing out dummy tickets to passengers at terminals on Monday would be a relatively mild disruption to travelers - one they could probably deal with.
Currently, a 121 Supplemental 3 man crew (2 pilots and a FE, so nobody is resting) can have an 18 hour duty day, 12 hours aloft, and 8 hours of of 'flight deck duty' (FAR 121.507). If 13 hours of duty is 5.5 times more likely to result in an accident, want to guess what 18 hours is?
And that 18 hours doesn't start until you're reporting "for duty for the purposes of flight". The ALPA handbook explains in Q-82 that if you're deadheaded from SLC-HNL, and then you fly HNL to ?, "the duty time for the crew . . . [starts] at Honolulu."

It's time for a change. 13 hour max duty day, and I'm glad to see @ least ALPA is supporting it (Do either IBT or CAPA have any official support position? Were they part of the ARC too?).
#17
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,235
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Where can I find this FAA study that says accident risk is 550% higher after a duty day of over 13 hours? Both the FAA and the EASA studies seem to say, quite clearly, that a duty day of over 13 hours is unsafe.
Currently, a 121 Supplemental 3 man crew (2 pilots and a FE, so nobody is resting) can have an 18 hour duty day, 12 hours aloft, and 8 hours of of 'flight deck duty' (FAR 121.507). If 13 hours of duty is 5.5 times more likely to result in an accident, want to guess what 18 hours is?
And that 18 hours doesn't start until you're reporting "for duty for the purposes of flight". The ALPA handbook explains in Q-82 that if you're deadheaded from SLC-HNL, and then you fly HNL to ?, "the duty time for the crew . . . [starts] at Honolulu."
It's time for a change. 13 hour max duty day, and I'm glad to see @ least ALPA is supporting it (Do either IBT or CAPA have any official support position? Were they part of the ARC too?).
Currently, a 121 Supplemental 3 man crew (2 pilots and a FE, so nobody is resting) can have an 18 hour duty day, 12 hours aloft, and 8 hours of of 'flight deck duty' (FAR 121.507). If 13 hours of duty is 5.5 times more likely to result in an accident, want to guess what 18 hours is?
And that 18 hours doesn't start until you're reporting "for duty for the purposes of flight". The ALPA handbook explains in Q-82 that if you're deadheaded from SLC-HNL, and then you fly HNL to ?, "the duty time for the crew . . . [starts] at Honolulu."

It's time for a change. 13 hour max duty day, and I'm glad to see @ least ALPA is supporting it (Do either IBT or CAPA have any official support position? Were they part of the ARC too?).
Last edited by 757upspilot; 10-06-2009 at 09:59 AM.
#18
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 758
Likes: 1
Your post below skybolt a few years ago: it appears you are a johnny come lately.
skybolt vbmenu_register("postmenu_31566", true);
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 234
CAL newhire insurance ?
It is my understanding that CAL offers COBRA to it's newhires. How much does that COBRA costper month, for a family of five?
I can find a way to work for first year pay, but not if I have to pay COBRA at the rates my current employer charges for a family.
Thanks in advance,
Skybolt
skybolt vbmenu_register("postmenu_31566", true);
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 234
It is my understanding that CAL offers COBRA to it's newhires. How much does that COBRA costper month, for a family of five?
I can find a way to work for first year pay, but not if I have to pay COBRA at the rates my current employer charges for a family.
Thanks in advance,
Skybolt
Later on, I moved up in ALPA.
What's your point?
#19
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,228
Likes: 62
From: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Your should have added a few other parts to your statement above. You could have said in these countries when a group goes on strike other groups can legally go on strike also. In the US it is illegal to take such job actions. Its a huge distinction. I am constantly amazed at how many pilots have never read the Railway Labor Act and can be so unimformed when it comes to the right to strike for any activity that falls under the RLA.
BTW... supporative strikes in Europe are not always legal... they are tolerated... and like here, there's nothing the government can do about it.
#20
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Joined: Jun 2009
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I was one of ten board members sitting on the committee that approved the resolution that ultimately went before the entire ALPA Executive Board.
John Prater never once twisted my arm for a pro age 65 vote. He, nor anyone else, made any attempt to influence the committee.
John Prater never once twisted my arm for a pro age 65 vote. He, nor anyone else, made any attempt to influence the committee.
And neither do you.
My roll call vote was insignificant in general assembly, and I must admit that it is possible that Prater politic'd long and hard for changing ALPA's stand, but the vote would never have gone to the floor if my delegate committee had not made a positive recommendation and I will again assure you that John Prater made no attempt to get the ten of us to vote either way.
It's of no consequence to me what action he did or did not take in front of your committee. I don't know what the exact role of that committee was, and quite frankly, I don't care to visit the minutiae of how he and his peers got Age 65 pushed through. Suffice to say his position was absoultely clear.
BTW, we decided to remove our support for age 60 simply because we looked at the evidence and decided that the FAA administrator (and Presidential administration) had already made up her mind to change the rule. The only way to have any influence on the final language was to end our oppostion and send our lobbyists in to work for us.
The APAAD and associated groups were going for RETROactive re-instatement of over age 60 pilots. How would you have liked that?
The APAAD and associated groups were going for RETROactive re-instatement of over age 60 pilots. How would you have liked that?
Legislators and the Executive chnaged their mind, not because they have any interest in the issue, and certainly not because of any public interest, because of intense lobbying by certain groups. Previously, whenever said lawmakers turned to us on this issue, and in the absence of any public will to raise the retirement age, the union stood firm, and said groups were indefinitely delayed in their efforts.
When the signal came that the union would turn, and Woerth abstained on the ARC, there was no reason to deny the requests of the (very active, and growing) minority that wanted a higher retirement age. I won't deny that they were driven by the failure of pension plans and other finanical hardships, but I refuse to believe the soft revisionism that lets you agrue the change came from outside the group.
At any rate, Prater has delivered on his promise to the older guys that got him elected. For the sake of unity among all pilots, and for the sake of finding a better, more effective person to advance the profession, I say it's time for this pony to go, his single trick having been performed.
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