Delta 3rd quarter loss
10-22-2009 | 06:53 AM
#51
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From: B757/767
I think the US dollar being in the toilet is going to significantly help int'l travel/traffic for those who fly across the pond, at least for the next few quarters. The Europeans are loving every minute of it since it's literally costing them HALF of what it used to. Unfortunately going to Europe for a "cheap" vacation is now a pipe dream.
You got that right! It is crazy expensive!
10-22-2009 | 07:00 AM
#52
seeing the country...
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: 73N A
Sounds like the regionals are going to get hammered some more next year.
10-22-2009 | 07:01 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
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From: 717
Pheasant in western ND. This will be the 3rd weekend in a row pheasant hunting and all of my kitchen passes are gone. Next week I will have to get back building up my kitchen pass "bank". 
Good luck with the doves, they are fun to shoot and a great to fondue.
Good luck with the doves, they are fun to shoot and a great to fondue.
10-22-2009 | 07:05 AM
#55
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: A-320A
[QUOTE=Scoop;698541]
Operational I believe.
WASHINGTON, Oct 22 (Reuters) - Delta Air Lines Inc (DAL.N), the world's biggest airline, reported a quarterly net loss on Thursday due to special charges, but operating earnings beat Wall Street expectations.
Delta, which merged with Northwest Airlines last year, said its loss was $161 million, or 19 cents per share, including $212 million in special charges.
Excluding the charges, the company reported a profit of 6 cents per share. Analysts on average had expected a loss of 5 cents per share, according to Thomson Reuters I/B/E/S. (Reporting by John Crawley; editing by John Wallace)
What profit drives our profit sharing? Is it operating profit, net profit, gross profit, make believe profit, or profit less special one time charges? Which by the way we seem to come up with new ones every quarter - no lack of management creativity here.
I remember the big argument when we were considering profit sharing was that the company could easily mask profits, to which the DALPA guys said we considered that and the type of "profit" our profit sharing was based on was not easily susceptible to manipulation.
Scoop
Delta, which merged with Northwest Airlines last year, said its loss was $161 million, or 19 cents per share, including $212 million in special charges.
Excluding the charges, the company reported a profit of 6 cents per share. Analysts on average had expected a loss of 5 cents per share, according to Thomson Reuters I/B/E/S. (Reporting by John Crawley; editing by John Wallace)
What profit drives our profit sharing? Is it operating profit, net profit, gross profit, make believe profit, or profit less special one time charges? Which by the way we seem to come up with new ones every quarter - no lack of management creativity here.
I remember the big argument when we were considering profit sharing was that the company could easily mask profits, to which the DALPA guys said we considered that and the type of "profit" our profit sharing was based on was not easily susceptible to manipulation.
Scoop
10-22-2009 | 07:21 AM
#56
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: 747-400 Captain
"As predicted, this massive loss of cash..." You couldn't be more wrong.
Carl
10-22-2009 | 10:09 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: LAX ERA
Carl,
Dead on. Also, guys need to remember that the fuel hedge is an oppertuniy loss, not a real one. Remember, if fuel was higher there would be no hedge loss as we paid what we thought we would pay. But, we would still be paying for fuel. Clear as mud? Gotta love accounting.....I certainly didn't.
Ferd
Dead on. Also, guys need to remember that the fuel hedge is an oppertuniy loss, not a real one. Remember, if fuel was higher there would be no hedge loss as we paid what we thought we would pay. But, we would still be paying for fuel. Clear as mud? Gotta love accounting.....I certainly didn't.
Ferd
10-22-2009 | 10:42 AM
#58
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From: B757/767
Carl,
Dead on. Also, guys need to remember that the fuel hedge is an oppertuniy loss, not a real one. Remember, if fuel was higher there would be no hedge loss as we paid what we thought we would pay. But, we would still be paying for fuel. Clear as mud? Gotta love accounting.....I certainly didn't.
Ferd
Dead on. Also, guys need to remember that the fuel hedge is an oppertuniy loss, not a real one. Remember, if fuel was higher there would be no hedge loss as we paid what we thought we would pay. But, we would still be paying for fuel. Clear as mud? Gotta love accounting.....I certainly didn't.
Ferd
10-22-2009 | 11:01 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
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Carl,
Dead on. Also, guys need to remember that the fuel hedge is an oppertuniy loss, not a real one. Remember, if fuel was higher there would be no hedge loss as we paid what we thought we would pay. But, we would still be paying for fuel. Clear as mud? Gotta love accounting.....I certainly didn't.
Ferd
Dead on. Also, guys need to remember that the fuel hedge is an oppertuniy loss, not a real one. Remember, if fuel was higher there would be no hedge loss as we paid what we thought we would pay. But, we would still be paying for fuel. Clear as mud? Gotta love accounting.....I certainly didn't.
Ferd
So some of the hedging losses are just unwinding from previous paper gains, but some of the hedging losses are actual cash outlays.
That said, the purpose of a hedging program is to eliminate risk in fuel. It is meant to break even over a long period of time, not to make money or lose money. We made a lot on hedges in 2008 and of course 2009 has been a negative. This is not a failure but it is how the program is designed. If we could win every time on hedging, we could quit flying passengers around and make lots more money speculating on fuel.
This quarter is traditionally cash flow negative but Delta added cash mostly by borrowing. Overall, it was a pretty good quarter in a very rough time. Next year we will start unwinding some of the costs of the merger (you only have to repaint the planes and consolidate airport space once) and will soon get the full benefits of integration. SOC in January, reservations switchover soon after that, dispatch in April (for flight plans and weight and balance). If the AFA and the IAM can work out their representation issues, then full operational integration will occur in late summer or fall. We are in pretty good shape, wouldn't trade our lot for any other right now.
When full operational integration starts to really kick in in late 2010 and 2011, then Delta forecasts a good deal of top line growth (income). If history follows, the recovery from recession should be in full force with employment rising. Hopefully, that sets us up for contract negotiations which will open near the end of 2011 or early in 2012.
10-22-2009 | 11:11 AM
#60
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: A-320A
Not exactly. If you buy an option for a future purchase, then you have to pay for that option. If it is not exercised, then you lose the money on that option. If you buy a collar and the fuel price is below the floor price, then you lose money on the put option. If you buy a swap and the price of the commodity (usually home heating oil) is below the swap price, then you eat the difference. Also with swaps, you may have to post collateral to cover part of the future price, so you lose access to that cash until the swap is covered.
So some of the hedging losses are just unwinding from previous paper gains, but some of the hedging losses are actual cash outlays.
That said, the purpose of a hedging program is to eliminate risk in fuel. It is meant to break even over a long period of time, not to make money or lose money. We made a lot on hedges in 2008 and of course 2009 has been a negative. This is not a failure but it is how the program is designed. If we could win every time on hedging, we could quit flying passengers around and make lots more money speculating on fuel.
This quarter is traditionally cash flow negative but Delta added cash mostly by borrowing. Overall, it was a pretty good quarter in a very rough time. Next year we will start unwinding some of the costs of the merger (you only have to repaint the planes and consolidate airport space once) and will soon get the full benefits of integration. SOC in January, reservations switchover soon after that, dispatch in April (for flight plans and weight and balance). If the AFA and the IAM can work out their representation issues, then full operational integration will occur in late summer or fall. We are in pretty good shape, wouldn't trade our lot for any other right now.
When full operational integration starts to really kick in in late 2010 and 2011, then Delta forecasts a good deal of top line growth (income). If history follows, the recovery from recession should be in full force with employment rising. Hopefully, that sets us up for contract negotiations which will open near the end of 2011 or early in 2012.
So some of the hedging losses are just unwinding from previous paper gains, but some of the hedging losses are actual cash outlays.
That said, the purpose of a hedging program is to eliminate risk in fuel. It is meant to break even over a long period of time, not to make money or lose money. We made a lot on hedges in 2008 and of course 2009 has been a negative. This is not a failure but it is how the program is designed. If we could win every time on hedging, we could quit flying passengers around and make lots more money speculating on fuel.
This quarter is traditionally cash flow negative but Delta added cash mostly by borrowing. Overall, it was a pretty good quarter in a very rough time. Next year we will start unwinding some of the costs of the merger (you only have to repaint the planes and consolidate airport space once) and will soon get the full benefits of integration. SOC in January, reservations switchover soon after that, dispatch in April (for flight plans and weight and balance). If the AFA and the IAM can work out their representation issues, then full operational integration will occur in late summer or fall. We are in pretty good shape, wouldn't trade our lot for any other right now.
When full operational integration starts to really kick in in late 2010 and 2011, then Delta forecasts a good deal of top line growth (income). If history follows, the recovery from recession should be in full force with employment rising. Hopefully, that sets us up for contract negotiations which will open near the end of 2011 or early in 2012.
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