You bring up a good point. I remember when this forum was supposed to be for Airline Pilots ... or for perhaps wannabes.

Now we have anybody and anyone coming onto this forum. I'm sorry, but APC has lost it's niche in the airline online blog sector.

I always thought having any "screen name" was petty and disingenuous. If I have something to say, I'm more than happy to put my name to it.

I agree with everything you just wrote.

Speaking of fatigue, the navy recently had a ship run aground due primarily to fatigued crews on undermanned ships. This article has this to say regarding fatigue on ships: (excerpted only)



----------------------------------------------------------

But endemic weariness isn’t just unpleasant. It can be deadly, said Capt. Nicholas Davenport, a fatigue expert with the Naval Safety Center.

“Fatigue affects mental capability in many different ways. The most obvious is where people just fall asleep — they’re not functional at all. We also know that these little ‘micro-sleeps’ go on, periods of seconds in the sleep mode, and a person is not aware of that. People can actually be asleep in those seconds. The more and more fatigued they get, their higher-level cognitive function degrades in a lot of strange ways."

“In the past, we’ve kind of had this heroic mentality that says, ‘We’re well trained, we’re drilled, we’re professional,’” Davenport said. “‘Yeah, we’re gonna be tired, we’re fatigued, but we know how to manage it.’ But the science, in fact, shows us that’s not true. As people get more and more fatigued, they do have degradation of their performance in a whole variety of ways.”

Lean manning saps morale, puts sailors at risk - Navy News, news from Iraq - Navy Times

Just read the AP press this afternoon. First, the CVR only provides the last 30 min. of the tape. Secondly, One of the two pilots, first officer Richard I. Cole, said that wasn't they weren't sleeping. "I can assure you none of us was asleep," Cole told ABC News.

Keep flamin' on!

I never implied there was a "justification", I said there is probably much more to this than they simply got distracted and failed to follow procedures. There has been tremendous change in procedures for the N pilots, with all of it train by distance learning, and the first actual performance of a new procedure when you do it in the CP for the first time. FMS programming protocols have changed. Lot's of little things that can add up to cause normal cues that we rely on to be missing or changed.

I'm neither defending nor chastising the crew. We don't know the whole story yet. I'm willing to wait and hear what the professional investigators come up with.

duplicate post

Ironically, in many of the blogs and comment sections of the online news outlets, I'm seeing a lot of people saying that airline pilots aren't paid what they should be, our companies have treated us like crap, we are so beaten down that we simply don't care anymore. Wow ....

They can extract well past the last 30 minutes.....

Mod note:

Please cut out the bashing and name calling. Thanks.

Sorry Dad.

The crew admitted to participating in a heated discussion. They lost their situational awareness during their so-called heated discussion. They put their passengers, who paid good money for safe conduct of passage from SAN to MSP at risk.

I'm sorry but neophyte rookies such as Tsquare, Clamp, MD92 have a hard sell in convincing me that there was no wrong committed here. OK guys, convince the public that after this episode, pilots are underpaid. Convince the public that pilots are the most disciplined human beings on the planet. Can you do this after this latest event? How can you counter the news media after all the negative publicity? Don't pull the fatigue card... cause that ain't gonna work after the crew admitted to being involved in a heated discussion.

Tell you what... if the FAA, and the NTSB states the contrary, I'll buy the next round of drinks.

I'm sick and tired of the cliché... "By the grace of ......" Karma.... it can happen to you".

Now, can someone, someone, please explain how in the absence of radio contact for over one hour let alone flying past your top of descent point, can happen to a crew that follows proper discipline, and company SOPs? Better yet... can anyone explain why those who are discipline don't find themselves in this situation?

Then this should get very interesting.

And your sources to back up your statement:rolleyes:?

Yes...it is sad that the behavior of children requires oversight of those same children.
You would think a *professional* forum would be above it; but as we see from the other thread, there are members of this forum that would like to see it (APC) at least attempt to maintain some decorum.

USMCFLYR

I got news for ya, the NPRM was released over a year ago and the FAR 121.359 (?) requires USA to finally catch up to EURO requirements (EASA) for 2 hours recording.
Upgrading the CVRs to 2-hour units is cheap; around 9-11 k for the older Hnywl units I think were popular around that time. Nonetheless, 2 hrs is a minimum recording time as is 30 minutes...but we probably never get to hear the transcript anyway; wouldnt union protections prevent its release?

capt,

The answer to your question is that it doesn't happen to a crew that follows proper discipline.

Instead of a trying to figure out how it could happen, maybe we should wait and find out why it happened. Then we can evaluate and learn.

At first blush, I think anyone would say that that crew screwed up, big time.

But at first blush, when we are in the simulator and on the line, it looks like;

1. Engines fail or catch on fire
2. Hydraulic fluid runs out
3. Landing gear fail to lower
4. And so on....

In each of these cases we have to run thru a checklist to verify the situation before we respond. Maybe we shoud try to do the same thing here....

The only thing I know for sure are the pilots' names and that they are both apparently from my neck of the woods. Other than that, I wasn't there, don't know what happened, and urge everyone not to speculate or bash each other. It's not productive. If that's how you get your jollies, try the PM feature that is available to you for free. Don't pollute the forums with stupid ramblings - it's unbecoming of professional pilots.

Pilots who overshot airport are from Pacific Northwest | Top Stories | Seattle News, Local News, Breaking News, Weather | KING5.com

Maybe they had to look up some procedure and got tied up in discussing whether it was in Plane, Path, People, or Performance.That "one place, some place" system would give a librarian a coronary :)

Good, mabye congress will have another knee jerk reaction resulting in more legislation, and we can stand by and let it happen because we are too busy throwing each other under the bus:eek:

If that's what they were discussing, they wouldn't have made the turn back until they were somewhere over Canada. :D

Probably the same as yours for calling Tsquare, clamp and MD "neophyte rookies"....
I did not sense anyone justifying or defending, just advising to wait until all the facts are in...that and reacting to your propensity to turn every subject into a review of your own vast experience and sound judgement....I have been flying for over 30 years also, but I have never felt the need to mention it here, you do so every other post, and I suspect in most of your daily conversations. It seems to this casual observer that it tends to grate....

You say that like you think I'm high strung? Lol I may change my avatar back, we'll see ;)

$$$$$
 

It's amazing what some people will do go get a little extra block time!

Yes! Nice pickup http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/highfive.gif!

One of the most funny things I heard today http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif.

Well sucks for these guys. Hope everything comes to light so we can see if people on here have been ****ing outside of the bucket or hitting it dead on.

You mean that one with Slick Willy smokin' a spliff on the cover?

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA240_.jpg

It's actually a golf tee. Just looks like a spliff.

I wonder how much fuel they landed with?

That narrows it down to about half the DAL-N pilots based in MSP:D.

Its gonna be hard to put anything other than a mostly negative spin on this. I hope they can at least spin it to slightly negative. I wish them well. Up to this point I am sure they have had an outstanding honorable career.

Amen! I agree completely!

Really? How can you say you keep people safe in the back when you just implied that you'd never call out fatigued? My suggestion is that you reconsider that stance.

I think it suggests that they did in fact commute:eek:.

The horror.

They might commute. But this was day 2 of a 5day.

This responsee is NOT a personal attack, and this thread isn't/shouldn't really be about fatigue until proven otherwise. Your views are not uncommon, however:

But, my god, stuff like this terrifies me. How can anyone possibly get to this level of aviation and have such a flawed understanding of the insidious nature of fatigue?

Then to somehow imply that a pilot was being professional and safe by pushing through anyway? A pilot's JOB is to arrive at work in a fully rested condition, and to call in fatigued if unable to meet that basic standard.

The captain signs paperwork certifying that before every flight; the FAA considers a well rested pilot that important, and it's not a "pencil-whip", pro forma.

I have always heard that the FBI can pull about 7 loops of the old CVRs. So they should be able to get about 3 hours of recording. We will see.

My guess is there will about 1 hour of silence followed by... "DING"... "Oh Crap!..." "Where are we..." ;)

Let's give those guys a break! The First Officer was interviewed at the front door of his home. The only thing he could say is that the press had the facts wrong and there was no sleeping at anytime. Let's wait for the investigation/hearing.

If we take their statements at face value, they are admitting they messed up. I fail to understand why you continue to rub their noses in it.

You must be a joy to fly with.

Gee... another original cliche:rolleyes:.

If they are lying though, it just makes them seem that much more stupid. If you fell asleep, ok, honest mistake, can happen without alot of factors playing against you. Missing an airport while you are awake, whole other story.

I like how he said safety was never compromised. Didn't know delta's dispatchers plan for everybody to overfly an airport by 150 miles and then come back. Guess it's part of the burn fuel huh?

I didn't get a chance to read all the other posts so maybe this was asked already, but are both these pilots over age 60?