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Originally Posted by GOCKY
(Post 700068)
I didn't get a chance to read all the other posts so maybe this was asked already, but are both these pilots over age 60?
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These guys are lying. Plain and simple.
No sleeping? No argument? No fight? OK, then if you were awake and saw the little airplane symbol PASS your destination, why did you not declare Lost Comm? Why no 7600 squawk? If there was a major avionics malfunction why not just tell the media already? Hopefully they can obtain more than the last 30 minutes of the CVR. Question for the A320 pilots out there: What AP/FD modes does the plane revert to when you pass your destination? Assuming the FMS was programmed correctly, what would happen if you forget to descend and just keep on truckin? |
Well, they can fess up and say we were sleeping or take whats behind door number two. The penalties for lying to a federal investigator.
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Originally Posted by Spacemann Splif
(Post 699635)
The guy who thinks it can never happen to him, is the next guy it happens to. Good luck with that arrogance, fella. :cool:
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Originally Posted by Fly4hire
(Post 699482)
How long does it take to cover 150nm at criuse with a 100kt tail wind?
Has DAL recently changed the protocol for programming the FMS as a result of the merger? What happens when a route discontinuity is reached on the flight plan ? How long was their duty day? What day of the trip? When was the currency of the crew? Sure someone made a mistake - what are the causal factors that weakened the safety chain to allow a link to be broken? On and on, and you so called professional pilots are ready to fire them and rewrite legislation, and we don't even know if they in fact fell asleep. Pathetic. They were on leg one of the second day of their trip. They were able to sleep in, because they left after mid-day. Their layover was approximately 19 hours. Seeing any excuses so far?? Me neither. Can you think of ONE SOLITARY REASON, apart from being asleep, that they might have stayed at FL370 til they were in Eastern Wisconsin? There can be none. Lost COMMs doesn't explain it. If they were in a "heated discussion" that had them losing so much situational awareness that neither man looked at his MFD once in the last hour prior to turning around and going back to MSP from the east then it'd probably be better if they WERE asleep... The main thing is not that they were asleep, but they've lied about it. There's no excuse for that. |
Originally Posted by captjns
(Post 699829)
The crew admitted to participating in a heated discussion. They lost their situational awareness during their so-called heated discussion. They put their passengers, who paid good money for safe conduct of passage from SAN to MSP at risk.
I'm sorry but neophyte rookies such as Tsquare, Clamp, MD92 have a hard sell in convincing me that there was no wrong committed here. OK guys, convince the public that after this episode, pilots are underpaid. Convince the public that pilots are the most disciplined human beings on the planet. Can you do this after this latest event? How can you counter the news media after all the negative publicity? Don't pull the fatigue card... cause that ain't gonna work after the crew admitted to being involved in a heated discussion. Tell you what... if the FAA, and the NTSB states the contrary, I'll buy the next round of drinks. I'm sick and tired of the cliché... "By the grace of ......" Karma.... it can happen to you". Now, can someone, someone, please explain how in the absence of radio contact for over one hour let alone flying past your top of descent point, can happen to a crew that follows proper discipline, and company SOPs? Better yet... can anyone explain why those who are discipline don't find themselves in this situation? The guys were asleep, and we all know it. I only wish they'd have admitted as much, ASAP'd it, taken the slap on the wrist, retraining, etc, and moved on. But they lied, and now they're fried... |
Originally Posted by Max Glide
(Post 700086)
Dangerous and Arrogant are people like you who ‘defend’ pilots like these [overshooting destinations; landing on taxiways]. Way to Monday-Night Quarterback this thing. |
Originally Posted by DeadHead
(Post 700101)
Arrogant are the people who determine the entire outcome of an incident within a few days of it.
Way to Monday-Night Quarterback this thing. I don't think he's Monday Night Quarterbacking this at all. He's simply stating that these guys screwed up. Pure and simple. There are no valid reasons to overfly ones destination, without realizing that ones done so. Be it sleep, an in-cockpit argument/discussion, both pilots going to the back at the same time, etc, etc, doesn't matter. There's absolutely, positively no excuse for what happened here, and to make matters worse, it appears (my best guess) that rather than fess up to being asleep, they have elected to insult everyone's intelligence by suggesting that they were wide awake, in the heat of a discussion, without either guy paying one bit of attention to what was happening around them. If I were their management, I'd fire them, if for no other reason, than the stupidity of their statement. Why would we want stupid people flying jets around the sky. Sorry for the rant, and if I've offended anyone, sorry about that too. It's just that at some point those involved in accidents/incidents need to step forward and take responsibility for their screw-ups, and the rest of us need to learn from their mistakes, while not claiming that they are without blame. JJ |
Originally Posted by Jetjok
(Post 700148)
DH,
I don't think he's Monday Night Quarterbacking this at all. He's simply stating that these guys screwed up. Pure and simple. There are no valid reasons to overfly ones destination, without realizing that ones done so. Be it sleep, an in-cockpit argument/discussion, both pilots going to the back at the same time, etc, etc, doesn't matter. There's absolutely, positively no excuse for what happened here, and to make matters worse, it appears (my best guess) that rather than fess up to being asleep, they have elected to insult everyone's intelligence by suggesting that they were wide awake, in the heat of a discussion, without either guy paying one bit of attention to what was happening around them. If I were their management, I'd fire them, if for no other reason, than the stupidity of their statement. Why would we want stupid people flying jets around the sky. Sorry for the rant, and if I've offended anyone, sorry about that too. It's just that at some point those involved in accidents/incidents need to step forward and take responsibility for their screw-ups, and the rest of us need to learn from their mistakes, while not claiming that they are without blame. JJ Spot on, mate. |
Originally Posted by emb145captain
(Post 700074)
These guys are lying. Plain and simple.
No sleeping? No argument? No fight? OK, then if you were awake and saw the little airplane symbol PASS your destination, why did you not declare Lost Comm? Why no 7600 squawk? If there was a major avionics malfunction why not just tell the media already? Hopefully they can obtain more than the last 30 minutes of the CVR. Question for the A320 pilots out there: What AP/FD modes does the plane revert to when you pass your destination? Assuming the FMS was programmed correctly, what would happen if you forget to descend and just keep on truckin? I think some of you "experts" willing to hang these guys need to wait until ALL the facts come out before you give us your dissertations. You dont know what happened. I know of a crew that lost their IRS' and ended up way off course so before you start the conviction process give these dudes a little respect. If or when its determined they made a mistake then you can start whining again. |
Originally Posted by aussieflyboy
(Post 700096)
There is no explanation, jns.
The guys were asleep, and we all know it. I only wish they'd have admitted as much, ASAP'd it, taken the slap on the wrist, retraining, etc, and moved on. But they lied, and now they're fried... |
The crew of this flight are going to have a bigger hurdle to overcome, and that's the FAA.
At the end of the day, if Delta does give these lads their walking papers, doubtful their successor employers will overlook the PRIA checks. I would guess these two gents are taking their cues from their ALPA attorneys. Even if applying overseas, PRIA checks are now required in Asia and Europe. It's a shame that while we are beating our chests how underpaid and poorly treated we are, these recent publicized incidents had to happen:(. |
Originally Posted by Herkulesdrvr
(Post 700159)
They lied and they were asleep? Wow, and you know this how? Are you the Faa investigator in charge of this? I hope you are as perfect as you lead us to believe you are.
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Originally Posted by Herkulesdrvr
(Post 700159)
They lied and they were asleep? Wow, and you know this how? Are you the Faa investigator in charge of this? I hope you are as perfect as you lead us to believe you are.
Just ONE. |
They miss-programmed their FMS, inadvertently entering a point after MSP or adding the alternate after MSP as part of the route. They missed a freq change with Denver center and quit paying attention to where they were while in Nav mode. The airplane kept flying the white line and they were flying waypoint to waypoint rather actually navigating. They had no idea that white dot they were overflying was their destination, just thought is was another point along the route.
That, my friend, is ONE plausible alternative explanation. Don't worry, there are plenty of other threads for you to post in. |
Congratulations !
This thread lasted longer than the Delta taxiway thread:)
Fred told me a story a long time ago about a certain TWA crew that fell asleep and missed their destination by about 300 miles and ended up having to turn around over the Atlantic!.:eek: Ally |
Originally Posted by LivingInMEM
(Post 700215)
They miss-programmed their FMS, inadvertently entering a point after MSP or adding the alternate after MSP as part of the route. They missed a freq change with Denver center and quit paying attention to where they were while in Nav mode. The airplane kept flying the white line and they were flying waypoint to waypoint rather actually navigating. They had no idea that white dot they were overflying was their destination, just thought is was another point along the route.
That, my friend, is ONE plausible alternative explanation. Don't worry, there are plenty of other threads for you to post in. |
He only wanted ONE, not a better one - BTW, I have run across a couple of people who have SA that low.
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Easy Explanation
Originally Posted by MatthewAMEL
(Post 698746)
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- Pilots of a Northwest Airlines flight to Minneapolis from San Diego were being investigated Thursday for allegedly falling asleep and overshooting their destination by about 100 miles. No one was injured during the incident, which occurred Wednesday night, Besides, as they said in the movie Road House, "it was a good night tonight, no one died". I'll take the chicken please.:cool: G'Night Mates:) |
Originally Posted by DYNASTY HVY
(Post 700225)
This thread lasted longer than the Delta taxiway thread:)
Fred told me a story a long time ago about a certain TWA crew that fell asleep and missed their destination by about 300 miles and ended up having to turn around over the Atlantic!.:eek: Ally A guy I used to CFI with was a flight mech on a C-130. They were doing ops out over the ocean, he walked from the back of the airplane up to the cockpit, saw the engineer out, copilot out, and AC out. He quietly exited the cockpit... haha |
Originally Posted by Jetjok
(Post 700148)
DH,
I don't think he's Monday Night Quarterbacking this at all. He's simply stating that these guys screwed up. Pure and simple. There are no valid reasons to overfly ones destination, without realizing that ones done so. Be it sleep, an in-cockpit argument/discussion, both pilots going to the back at the same time, etc, etc, doesn't matter. There's absolutely, positively no excuse for what happened here, and to make matters worse, it appears (my best guess) that rather than fess up to being asleep, they have elected to insult everyone's intelligence by suggesting that they were wide awake, in the heat of a discussion, without either guy paying one bit of attention to what was happening around them. If I were their management, I'd fire them, if for no other reason, than the stupidity of their statement. Why would we want stupid people flying jets around the sky. Sorry for the rant, and if I've offended anyone, sorry about that too. It's just that at some point those involved in accidents/incidents need to step forward and take responsibility for their screw-ups, and the rest of us need to learn from their mistakes, while not claiming that they are without blame. JJ |
I don't disagree, but since we're not supposed to be talking politics here, I'll pass. Besides, I really don't see how you make that connection. Everyone knows that airline pilots have more integrity than politicians, and perhaps that's the problem with these guys.
JJ |
Originally Posted by Jetjok
(Post 700250)
I don't disagree, but since we're not supposed to be talking politics here, I'll pass. Besides, I really don't see how you make that connection. Everyone knows that airline pilots have more integrity than politicians, and perhaps that's the problem with these guys.
JJ |
Originally Posted by FlyJSH
(Post 700245)
Their statement insults my intelligence less than "I did not inhale" or "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
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Originally Posted by ewrbasedpilot
(Post 700255)
I'll do you one better: "mission accomplished!" :rolleyes: So far the ONLY thing I can't forgive is showing up drunk and having pilots on this forum defend THAT. We've all made mistakes, missed radio calls, and turned the wrong way on a a taxi way................but drinking and flying........that's where MY lack of tolerance/forgiveness lies. For those of you who have never missed a radio handoff nor made a mistake, all I can say is God bless you and keep up the excellent work (your time will come). For those who've flown for 250 miles without a radio frequency change, I'm right there with you, and YES, their are places in this great country of ours that you can fly for almost a half hour, never hear a controller nor get a frequency change, so it's not as uncommon as some would like everyone to think. So, why all the jumping to conclusions? We'll all find out what happened in due time.
If radio contact is lost then flight watch is contacted on the appropriate frequency to assist in re-establishing radio contact with ATC. In Europe and Asia, a call on guard is made to obtain the proper frequency. |
Originally Posted by ewrbasedpilot
(Post 700255)
I'll do you one better: "mission accomplished!" :rolleyes: So far the ONLY thing I can't forgive is showing up drunk and having pilots on this forum defend THAT. We've all made mistakes, missed radio calls, and turned the wrong way on a a taxi way................but drinking and flying........that's where MY lack of tolerance/forgiveness lies. For those of you who have never missed a radio handoff nor made a mistake, all I can say is God bless you and keep up the excellent work (your time will come). For those who've flown for 250 miles without a radio frequency change, I'm right there with you, and YES, their are places in this great country of ours that you can fly for almost a half hour, never hear a controller nor get a frequency change, so it's not as uncommon as some would like everyone to think. So, why all the jumping to conclusions? We'll all find out what happened in due time.
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Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
(Post 700267)
Don't care how you slice it they should have some idea that you have to descend at some point to land. Missing a radio call or a handoff is one thing. Flying that long without ever looking at the TV screen is another. It's not like those are old steam gauges.
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Originally Posted by captjns
(Post 700257)
If there is radio silence on the frequency for more than 15 minutes, we ask for a radio check. That has been SOP at a number of carriers I have flown with. In Europe and Asia, the radio check procedure has prevented embarrassing moments when approaching FIR boundaries. Same procedure is accomplished in the US too... to prevent flying 80 minutes without radio contact:).
If radio contact is lost then flight watch is contacted on the appropriate frequency to assist in re-establishing radio contact with ATC. In Europe and Asia, a call on guard is made to obtain the proper frequency. |
Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
(Post 700267)
Don't care how you slice it they should have some idea that you have to descend at some point to land. Missing a radio call or a handoff is one thing. Flying that long without ever looking at the TV screen is another. It's not like those are old steam gauges.
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Originally Posted by ewrbasedpilot
(Post 700284)
...Not making any excuses for these guys, but I've got to wonder why the company wasn't sending them ACARS or SELCAL messages, or trying to contact them via 121.5 with concern about their time of arrival in question. Still, I'll withhold my judgment until the report is out.
I'm sure the DFDR will show switch movements on some items in the cockpit. Also the FMC and OFDM download contains memory relating to inputs made into the CDU. Those two items will be very instrument relating to the ongoing investigation. |
If the FAA investigation states that they were NOT sleeping then I would expect every one that accused them of sleeping to admit they were wrong on this forum.
I am not naive enough to believe that all of you would admit your mistake in public or in private. Maybe then we can all point out how wrong those people are and how unqualified they are to post in an aviation forum and how they should not be allowed to post in the future because they made such a blatant error. |
Originally Posted by Nosmo King
(Post 700302)
If the FAA investigation states that they were NOT sleeping then I would expect every one that accused them of sleeping to admit they were wrong on this forum.
I am not naive enough to believe that all of you would admit your mistake in public or in private. Maybe then we can all point out how wrong those people are and how unqualified they are to post in an aviation forum and how they should not be allowed to post in the future because they made such a blatant error. USMCFLYR |
Originally Posted by LivingInMEM
(Post 700215)
They miss-programmed their FMS, inadvertently entering a point after MSP or adding the alternate after MSP as part of the route. They missed a freq change with Denver center and quit paying attention to where they were while in Nav mode. The airplane kept flying the white line and they were flying waypoint to waypoint rather actually navigating. They had no idea that white dot they were overflying was their destination, just thought is was another point along the route.
That, my friend, is ONE plausible alternative explanation. Don't worry, there are plenty of other threads for you to post in. If that's indeed what happened then these guys not only need to be fired, they should probably go back to the very beginning and go their private pilot training all over again. If you're completely without situational awareness for two hours with no idea where you are and completely out of communication then you have no business carrying passengers. |
Originally Posted by aussieflyboy
(Post 700169)
If you can give me EVEN ONE plausible alternative explanation for what happened then I'll shut up and you won't hear from me again for the rest of the thread...
Just ONE. What you should do in this country is allow due process to take place. I am not defending anything other than letting these guys be investigated without experts like you frying them before you know anything. |
Originally Posted by aussieflyboy
(Post 700309)
Yeah, not good enough mate.
If that's indeed what happened then these guys not only need to be fired, they should probably go back to the very beginning and go their private pilot training all over again. If you're completely without situational awareness for two hours with no idea where you are and completely out of communication then you have no business carrying passengers. |
Aussie, you have as much SA as they did. You did not say to give an explanation that would vindicate them, you said to give a plausible explanation as an alternative to them sleeping - that I did.
FWIW - I see you are an EMB-145 F/O - so how many EMB-145 F/O's continuously monitor where they are - I would like a Capt to cover the FMS and ask an F/O where the nearest divert is (simulate loss of all navigation/comm and electrical fire) and see how many get it right. I am pretty sure there are many out there that do not maintain the positional SA that they should. |
Originally Posted by LivingInMEM
(Post 700320)
FWIW - I see you are an EMB-145 F/O - so how many EMB-145 F/O's continuously monitor where they are - I would like a Capt to cover the FMS and ask an F/O where the nearest divert is (simulate loss of all navigation/comm and electrical fire) and see how many get it right. I am pretty sure there are many out there that do not maintain the positional SA that they should.
What a crock! In the 3 airlines I've been associated with, each has had its procedures for the crew (both PF and PM [used to be PNF]) to use to maintain situational awareness. Did each crewmember follow that every time? Probably not, but hopefully at least the PF knew where the freak he was. Of course, depending on length of flight,the PM usually would keep the flight log, which should make him or her privy to their whereabouts, at least within 20 miles or so. Now, whether either of them knew where the closest divert base was at any point in time could be questioned, but then again, that's what the FMS is for. For the steam gauge guys, well they usually needed a chart. I know I did.:confused: JJ |
Originally Posted by Herkulesdrvr
(Post 700315)
What you should do in this country is allow due process to take place.
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I never though the lied to the authorities when they said they lost their way whilst in their heated discussion was a cover up.
As a matter of practice we tune Navs on the NG in order to maintain a sense of situation awareness as it relates to our location. The only alert for top of descent on the NG is blinking FMC amber light on both foward instrument panels along with a Reset Mode Control Panel Altitude in the FMC CDU. Be that as it may, it seems that all this automation, unfortunately, has made some way too complacent. |
Originally Posted by LivingInMEM
(Post 700320)
FWIW - I see you are an EMB-145 F/O - so how many EMB-145 F/O's continuously monitor where they are - I would like a Capt to cover the FMS and ask an F/O where the nearest divert is (simulate loss of all navigation/comm and electrical fire) and see how many get it right. I am pretty sure there are many out there that do not maintain the positional SA that they should.
Why would it matter that he's a 145 FO? There goes that major vs regional dumb debate again. Those statements are about as accurate as me saying "so how many 767 CAs could land on a runway" or "How many NWA guys can find an airport". How many thousands of hours pushing the autopilot button and reading back a radio call must one do before he's considered skilled at his job? Obviously it isn't that hard or we would have people sleeping behind the wheel ;) |
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