Pros and Cons, Pref. Bidding
11-16-2009, 03:56 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by CVG767A
I'm not really following your explanation; I've bid under both systems, and after 13(?) years of bidding lines, and about 9(?) of PBS, I'd much rather be using PBS. My seniority in category has ranged from top 60% up to top 5%, and PBS has always given me a better schedule than I would have gotten otherwise.
I'm not sure what your proposed PBS systems looks like, but it sounds like it bears little resemblance to the one in place at Delta
I'm not sure what your proposed PBS systems looks like, but it sounds like it bears little resemblance to the one in place at Delta
11-16-2009, 03:59 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by cactusmike
The idea that you get paid for trips that touch your vacation went out with a lot of concessionary contracts. Most airlines do not have that anymore. It is a great deal but, like so much of our industry, it's gone.
PBS works great if you like to bid certain trips or cities, you need to have different days off each week, you don't really want to spend a lot of time on your bid.
You can specify (or avoid) layover cities and specific pairings.
If you are lazy you can just leave a standing bid in place.
I have done both systems, I have been senior and junior and on reserve under both, I prefer PBS.
PBS works great if you like to bid certain trips or cities, you need to have different days off each week, you don't really want to spend a lot of time on your bid.
You can specify (or avoid) layover cities and specific pairings.
If you are lazy you can just leave a standing bid in place.
I have done both systems, I have been senior and junior and on reserve under both, I prefer PBS.
11-16-2009, 04:06 PM
#43
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You have to separate out the underlying work rules from the PBS bidding. If your work rules stink, your schedule will stink. At Delta we were very insistent on keeping the trip rigs as they dictate your quality of life.
PBS has many different vendors with many different options. Some are good, some stink. It is important that the union have some control over the selection of the software and the implementation of the software. At Delta, we have gotten many software upgrades based on pilot input. Our PBS is much better now than in the past.
Another key element of PBS is the inclusion of training/vacation in your initial bid. In other words, you can't let them build a full line around your vacation, that time must count towards your monthly allotment.
PBS will generally give you more regular line holders, but less reserves, and usually it will be a net loss of jobs, not dramatic but noticeable. At Delta we coupled PBS with a variety of other changes to increase pilot productivity and that drove a more noticeable loss of jobs. It was painful to go through the transition, but now it makes it easier to compete and justify more pay. At some point you have to look at what carriers like SWA are doing and either compete with them or lose to them.
PBS has many different vendors with many different options. Some are good, some stink. It is important that the union have some control over the selection of the software and the implementation of the software. At Delta, we have gotten many software upgrades based on pilot input. Our PBS is much better now than in the past.
Another key element of PBS is the inclusion of training/vacation in your initial bid. In other words, you can't let them build a full line around your vacation, that time must count towards your monthly allotment.
PBS will generally give you more regular line holders, but less reserves, and usually it will be a net loss of jobs, not dramatic but noticeable. At Delta we coupled PBS with a variety of other changes to increase pilot productivity and that drove a more noticeable loss of jobs. It was painful to go through the transition, but now it makes it easier to compete and justify more pay. At some point you have to look at what carriers like SWA are doing and either compete with them or lose to them.
11-16-2009, 04:13 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by 757upspilot
So you conceded that you won't get that ability back. Those of us that still have the ability to drop trips that are touched by vacation/training/etc are working to keep it amd PBS is one of the peices we don't want.
11-16-2009, 04:21 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by alfaromeo
You have to separate out the underlying work rules from the PBS bidding. If your work rules stink, your schedule will stink. At Delta we were very insistent on keeping the trip rigs as they dictate your quality of life.
PBS has many different vendors with many different options. Some are good, some stink. It is important that the union have some control over the selection of the software and the implementation of the software. At Delta, we have gotten many software upgrades based on pilot input. Our PBS is much better now than in the past.
Another key element of PBS is the inclusion of training/vacation in your initial bid. In other words, you can't let them build a full line around your vacation, that time must count towards your monthly allotment.
PBS will generally give you more regular line holders, but less reserves, and usually it will be a net loss of jobs, not dramatic but noticeable. At Delta we coupled PBS with a variety of other changes to increase pilot productivity and that drove a more noticeable loss of jobs. It was painful to go through the transition, but now it makes it easier to compete and justify more pay. At some point you have to look at what carriers like SWA are doing and either compete with them or lose to them.
PBS has many different vendors with many different options. Some are good, some stink. It is important that the union have some control over the selection of the software and the implementation of the software. At Delta, we have gotten many software upgrades based on pilot input. Our PBS is much better now than in the past.
Another key element of PBS is the inclusion of training/vacation in your initial bid. In other words, you can't let them build a full line around your vacation, that time must count towards your monthly allotment.
PBS will generally give you more regular line holders, but less reserves, and usually it will be a net loss of jobs, not dramatic but noticeable. At Delta we coupled PBS with a variety of other changes to increase pilot productivity and that drove a more noticeable loss of jobs. It was painful to go through the transition, but now it makes it easier to compete and justify more pay. At some point you have to look at what carriers like SWA are doing and either compete with them or lose to them.
11-16-2009, 04:42 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by alfaromeo
You have to separate out the underlying work rules from the PBS bidding. If your work rules stink, your schedule will stink. At Delta we were very insistent on keeping the trip rigs as they dictate your quality of life.
......Another key element of PBS is the inclusion of training/vacation in your initial bid. In other words, you can't let them build a full line around your vacation, that time must count towards your monthly allotment.
......Another key element of PBS is the inclusion of training/vacation in your initial bid. In other words, you can't let them build a full line around your vacation, that time must count towards your monthly allotment.
That is what lines give us. We can turn two weeks vacation into 28 days off, then have a week off on my next bid and turn 2 into 5 weeks off with pay. Not all of us can do that, but with some seniority, you can manage to drop vacation over trips, I used to get two weeks off for one week vacation as a really junior bidder. The more senior, the more you can overlap to get max time off. Guess that is what appeals to us. PBS eliminates all that even if we managed to get other good PBS rules. Of course, many of us like same seat pay regardless of aircraft. As we migrate to all heavies, it is even less of a big deal. It allows crews to bid what they really prefer instead of chasing the pay. Nice to get rid of that variable. Reason you can be a junior Captain and fly 747-400's in ANC. <g>
I still maintain that pilots are generally an optimistic sort and learn to find the cherries among all the pits in the business. That's a good thing that speaks well for all of us.
11-16-2009, 06:49 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by say that again
There are numerous items in the UPS contract that make PBS especially distasteful for UPS pilots. The bid line guarantee, conflict rules, narrow adjustment window that actually closes and odd hours make PBS very attractive to UPS management. Without these specific rules, PBS might be more palatable to the UPS pilot group but I don't see those rules ever changing unless the negotiators are clueless.
You are confusing your contract work rules with a scheduling system program. You can create a PBS program to do everything that you mention above, after all it is just a computer scheduling program.
Good work rules with PBS- Good schedules.
Crappy work rules with PBS - Crappy schedules.
PBS can be good or bad but with the same contract rules I think it is far superior. PBS is a relatively new development mostly enabled by increases in computing capability, and since contracts have generally been going south lately PBS seems to come in with concessionary contracts, so guys tend to blame PBS for concessionary work rules.
You are comparing Lines of times with your companies very generous work rules to PBS at companies with mostly post 911 concessionary work rules. Not a very fair comparison.
Scoop
11-16-2009, 06:56 PM
#49
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[quote=SaltyDog;712717]So at Delta, If you have two weeks of vacation, can you tweak PBS so it drops 14 days of trips and combine that with the contractual days off to get most of the month off?
Salty,
No we can not do that at Delta, but it has nothing to do with PBS. We had touching trip drops, but I am pretty sure that we lost that in contract 2000, along with partial month move-ups, and a lot of other really good stuff, years before we started using PBS.
Scoop
Salty,
No we can not do that at Delta, but it has nothing to do with PBS. We had touching trip drops, but I am pretty sure that we lost that in contract 2000, along with partial month move-ups, and a lot of other really good stuff, years before we started using PBS.
Scoop
11-16-2009, 07:02 PM
#50
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[QUOTE=Scoop;712790]
Sounds like tree roots <g>. You got what you got. Simply try to make it work out by trimming off the onerous branches and nurture the good ones. Different starting points for everyone.
Am glad we have ours, hope we don't lose it. Don't want to start with a new 'tree' <g>
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
So at Delta, If you have two weeks of vacation, can you tweak PBS so it drops 14 days of trips and combine that with the contractual days off to get most of the month off?
Salty,
No we can not do that at Delta, but it has nothing to do with PBS. We had touching trip drops, but I am pretty sure that we lost that in contract 2000, along with partial month move-ups, and a lot of other really good stuff, years before we started using PBS.
Scoop
Salty,
No we can not do that at Delta, but it has nothing to do with PBS. We had touching trip drops, but I am pretty sure that we lost that in contract 2000, along with partial month move-ups, and a lot of other really good stuff, years before we started using PBS.
Scoop
Am glad we have ours, hope we don't lose it. Don't want to start with a new 'tree' <g>
